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Confusion about 7th chords

#61
I am pretty sure it has been said already, butttt...

C Maj 7 is C Major 7 is Cmaj7 is CM7 is C E G B
It is C Major 7 because C E G is a MAJOR triad, and B-C is a MAJOR 7th

C7 is C dom 7 is C Dominant 7 is C E G Bb
It is a MAJOR chord, and Bb - C is a MINOR 7th

C Min 7 is C Minor 7 is Cmin7 is Cm7 is C Eb G Bb
It is a MINOR chord and Bb - C is a MINOR 7th

When you say MAJOR it means both the chord and the 7th is MAJOR
When you say MINOR is means both the chord and the 7th is MINOR
When you say DOMINANT it means MAJOR chord and MINOR 7th.

There are more, but these are the ones that seem to be an issue.
There is also Augmented, Diminished, Half Diminished, and minor/Major.
 
#62
zekimert said:
Wow, just two days away from the forum and look what happened :D

First I have to say that I don't know how to use modes, but I am aware of the importance of them and I appreciate those people who got the knowledge.



Actually we are in a conflict here with my friends in defining "C7", "C major 7" and "Cmaj7". I asked the same question in another forum, I collect slightly different answers comparing those I've get here.

In the turkish forum, almost everyone has agreed on the definition claiming:


It says C7 is C major 7 = C dominant 7 which includes a Bb
and
Cmaj7 is something totally different, including a B in it.

And here's the link of the discussion topic (you can see the definition above has been given in the 3rd post)
Basgitarist.com >> Forums >> Bas Dersleri >> Yedili akorlarla ilgili bir soru




I read your posts and attachments johnny, thanks a lot. Even I know the seventh chords in the way that you posted until now. But in here, people are strictly rejecting the definition of "major 7 and maj7 are the same".
Click to expand...

C Major 7 is C Maj 7 is CM7 is Cmaj7
C7 is different, it is dominant.

I hate to sound asinine, because I do know that information is available all over the world, but you are on a Turkish forum discussing Western Theory practices. Perhaps the people in that forum are not as familiar with Western practice, or possibly, in Turkey, that is how the do their own form of theory. I am not very keen on Eastern theory. (Is there Eastern theory?)
 
#63
To me, if you know the notes of the major scale, the major seventh chord simply uses the seventh tone from the major scale (half step bvelow the root note), and the dominant seventh uses a flattened seven (full step below the root note). Doesn't strike me as unduly complicated. But I'm a simple person.
 
#64
Well, in Western music usage, it's pretty simple...

C Maj is the major triad of 1, 3, 5 of the scale; a major third (C - E) with a minor third (E -G) on top. Using that triad as the starting point, you can have either a major 7 or a minor 7 on top.

C Major 7, also notated as CMaj7, CM7, CMa7, C▲7 is the major triad with a major 7 above, so it's C E G B; built on a major third, then a minor third, then a major third.

C7 is simply the common dominant 7, a major triad with a minor 7th on top. Hence, it's C E G Bb, a major third, then a minor third, then another minor third.

I think the problem may be from a convention for notating the Major 7 I've seen in some older charts and books. I've seen a Major 7 notation where they use the European convention of writing the numeral 7 with a line through it (something I can't find how to do on-line). It's a confusing notation because it used that little line crossing the upright of the numeral to distinguish between the C E G B Major 7 and the same notation WITHOUT the crossed lines for the C E G Bb dominant 7.

John
 
#65
zekimert said:
Wow, just two days away from the forum and look what happened :D

First I have to say that I don't know how to use modes, but I am aware of the importance of them and I appreciate those people who got the knowledge.



Actually we are in a conflict here with my friends in defining "C7", "C major 7" and "Cmaj7". I asked the same question in another forum, I collect slightly different answers comparing those I've get here.

In the turkish forum, almost everyone has agreed on the definition claiming:


It says C7 is C major 7 = C dominant 7 which includes a Bb
and
Cmaj7 is something totally different, including a B in it.

And here's the link of the discussion topic (you can see the definition above has been given in the 3rd post)
Basgitarist.com >> Forums >> Bas Dersleri >> Yedili akorlarla ilgili bir soru




I read your posts and attachments johnny, thanks a lot. Even I know the seventh chords in the way that you posted until now. But in here, people are strictly rejecting the definition of "major 7 and maj7 are the same".
Click to expand...

I don't read Turkish, but AFAICS, what you quoted doesn't seem to say what you think it does. It seems, in fact, to say what everybody has been saying here--namely that C major 7 and Cmaj7 are exactly the same chord. I don't see a disagreement.

Here's what you quoted:

(C7)
C için C, E, G ve Bb

Majör +7 or Maj7;
(CMaj7)
C için C, E, G, B

Minör 7
(Cm7, Cmin7)
C için C, Eb, G, Bb

Where do you see anything that claims that C7 = C major 7? What I *think* I see is somebody explaining that C major 7 and Cmaj7 are the same, and that both are different from C7. But maybe I'm missing something because I don't speak or read Turkish.

Anyway, regardless of what they say on that forum, here's the bottom line, *at least for Western European and American practice*: C major 7 and Cmaj7 and CM7 (note the capital "M") are the SAME chord, comprising C E G B. Any opinion to the contrary is mistaken.

C7 and C dominant 7 (the former is the preferred term) are the same chord, comprising C E G Bb. Any opinion to the contrary is mistaken.

Cmin7, Cmi7, C minor 7, and Cm7 (note the small "m") are all the same chord, comprising C Eb G Bb. Any opinion to the contrary is mistaken.

To blunt, anyone telling you that C major 7 and Cmaj7 are different chords is wrong. It's that simple.
 
#66
Papa Dangerous said:
I am pretty sure it has been said already, butttt...

C Maj 7 is C Major 7 is Cmaj7 is CM7 is C E G B
It is C Major 7 because C E G is a MAJOR triad, and B-C is a MAJOR step/MAJOR 7th

C7 is C dom 7 is C Dominant 7 is C E G Bb
It is a MAJOR chord, and Bb - C is a MINOR step/MINOR 7th

C Min 7 is C Minor 7 is Cmin7 is Cm7 is C Eb G Bb
It is a MINOR chord and Bb - C is a MINOR step/MINOR 7th

When you say MAJOR it means both the chord and the 7th is MAJOR
When you say MINOR is means both the chord and the 7th is MINOR
When you say DOMINANT it means MAJOR chord and MINOR 7th.

There are more, but these are the ones that seem to be an issue.
There is also Augmented, Diminished, Half Diminished, and minor/Major.
Click to expand...

Actually B-C is a MINOR step, because B-C is a minor second. I think what you meant to say is that B is a major 7 interval relative to the root.

Similarly Bb-C is a MAJOR step, because Bb-C is a major second. Again, you probably meant to say that Bb is a minor 7 relative to the root.
 
#70
First, thank you all for the valuable clarification.

... I am not very keen on Eastern theory. (Is there Eastern theory?)
Click to expand...
I really don't like to honk the topic periodically but what I have to say is: this is basic music theory right? It is not supposed to be a relative phenomenon that varies between countries. Despite the fact that in eastern music, there are some modes based on "commas" that couldn't be performed via fretted western instruments, but that's something different. A major is a major everywhere in the world - agreed.

From all the discussion made here, what I understand is there is an obvious spelling/reading difference of reading seventh chords. Cm7 is reading as C minor seventh and C7 is "C major seventh" (since it has no minor "m" next to C). That is what makes C major 7 and Cmaj7 different here.

I figured out that using the short-forms of the chords only (like "C7" or "Cmaj7") instead of spelling their full names (like "c dominant seven") makes all the discussion clear, because there is a consensus in C7 is C, E, G, Bb and Cmaj7 is C, E, G, B in both answers. The difference occurs only in reading the full names.
 
#71
zekimert said:
From all the discussion made here, what I understand is there is an obvious spelling/reading difference of reading seventh chords. Cm7 is reading as C minor seventh and C7 is "C major seventh" (since it has no minor "m" next to C). That is what makes C major 7 and Cmaj7 different here.
Click to expand...

No. C7 is always a dominant seventh chord, aka seventh chord. It is never a major seventh chord. It must have an M or Maj or major next to it to be a major seventh chord, no exceptions.
 
#75
Richard Lindsey said:
Hate to be picky, but the post is still not right. B-C is not a major 7th or any other kind of 7th; it's still a minor 2nd. Now, C-B IS a major 7th.

Same thing with Bb-C--NOT a minor 7th but a major 2nd. C-Bb is a minor 7th.
Click to expand...


I can agree with that. I was gearing towards the interval between the 7th and 8th (thus B-C).

So, to be clear, if you have a half step between the 7th B, and tonic 8, that is found in the Major scale (As well as in the harmonic/melodic minor scale; these minor scales take a major sound by having the leading tone a half step from tonic)

If you have a whole step between the 7th Bb and tonic C, that is found in the Natural Minor scale.
 
#76
Well, one thing all of this does is underscore the fact that our nomenclature for chords is not entirely consistent.

There is a more consistent system available, by which C7 is referred to as C major minor 7 (meaning a major triad with a minor 7th), Cm7 is referred to as C minor minor 7 (minor triad with a minor 7th), etc. This is, let's say, logical, but I've never met a single musician who ever used it. I think it's a musicologist thing.
 
#78
zekimert said:
First, thank you all for the valuable clarification.


I really don't like to honk the topic periodically but what I have to say is: this is basic music theory right? It is not supposed to be a relative phenomenon that varies between countries. Despite the fact that in eastern music, there are some modes based on "commas" that couldn't be performed via fretted western instruments, but that's something different. A major is a major everywhere in the world - agreed.

From all the discussion made here, what I understand is there is an obvious spelling/reading difference of reading seventh chords. Cm7 is reading as C minor seventh and C7 is "C major seventh" (since it has no minor "m" next to C). That is what makes C major 7 and Cmaj7 different here.

I figured out that using the short-forms of the chords only (like "C7" or "Cmaj7") instead of spelling their full names (like "c dominant seven") makes all the discussion clear, because there is a consensus in C7 is C, E, G, Bb and Cmaj7 is C, E, G, B in both answers. The difference occurs only in reading the full names.
Click to expand...


In a sense. But what if that country does not view letters like A B C D E F G... what if they have a different alphabet or Sanskrit, or kanji (Spelling?)

I guess that would make it different.

But at the same respect, labels are 100% arbitrary. What matters is the amount of vibrations the string makes per second (if strings are involved).

But then again, who is to say that non western countries agree with the western method of designating amount of vibrations per note.

Each octave of the piano doubles as it increases. Perhaps A vibrating at 55, 110, 220, 440, 880 etc etc. cps is non existent in their music?

Maybe the closest note to 440 they have is perhaps 450. A subtle difference, but its different.

This is all hypothetical/ possibly philosophical if you want it to be. And as I stated earlier, I have no idea of their system of temperament in the Eastern World.
 
#79
zekimert said:
Guys I totally got you, I am just trying to identify the cause of this difference in understanding. And I found it. It's crystal clear in my head now. For me, C7 is only a C7, not a "major". It is just C7! :)
Click to expand...

If you use a 7th chord, its quality will depend on which scale degree you are applying the 7th too.

In Major scale
The Tonic uses a CM7 chord
The Dominant uses a Dominant Chord (G7)
it is dominant because in a diatonic scale, a dominant chord uses the notes of that scale in order to create proper tension and resolution. SO. G B D F is G7 in the key of C. The F-G is a whole step between the 7th and octave (within the chord, not the scale). That is found in the dominant chord.

That is pretty much why it is a dominant chord.


Also... I was typing something up, thought I had something going, but never found my two ideas to really relate. However, It seemed like some good info, so I left it in here, and made it a long way to try and get to the conclusion you just read above.

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The fifth of a scale is called the Dominant. It is called this because it is the second most important note aside from the Tonic. The third most important is the fourth (subdominant). This is almost just as important, but a hairline shorter. It is the opposite of the Fifth that gives it its value. A fifth above the root, is a fourth below the root.

The dominant chord creates a sort of tension that makes you want to resolve to the tonic. Its what we predict in our minds because it is most pleasing to our brain. That is why so many pieces end with a V-I Perfect Authentic Cadence.

The dominant chord, in C, is G. G B D is the chord. B is the 7th of the scale in C.

the leading tone always wants to go to the tonic, that is why it is called the leading tone.. It leads to the tonic!

That is why the V chord is Major in a Major scale!

As for the Seventh, the seventh of G7 is F, which is a whole step from G, which determines it as being a Dominant chord! Major Triad, plus lowered seventh!

This is interesting as well: What makes a strong chord progression?
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