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Considering dipping a toe into Tube Amps...

Greyfin10

Greyfin10

Sep 16, 2008
328
39
Panama City, FL
#1
Note: This is long and rambly... sorry. I really don't know where to start on this one :)

Ok, this is the definition of setting myself up to fail, but I recently got a deal on a couple of Ampeg cabs (410 and 115) and their mere presence has been whispering for me to challenge my previous habits and enter the world of black magic and imagination.

Specifically, I've been running "modern" sounding amps pretty much since I've played bass... first amp was a Univox combo, then I upgraded to a Peavey Mk IV, then a Megabass through an 1810 cab, and in recent years Genz Benz amps (main being a ShuttleMax 12.0). I am historically a devotee of the new... the clean... the light... etcetera.

But, to be blunt, I'm bored with it all... so I'm considering spending money on amp technology I don't really believe in, in the hope that it'll reignite my interest. Its the tension between what I would like to be true, and what I suspect is true. Also, I'm not really all that sure I trust my ears in this sort of thing... I either just like it or I don't. So, yeah. Setting myself up to spend money and be dissatisfied is what I'm doing.

The aforementioned ShuttleMax ostensibly has a tube preamp circuit, but I don't really care for the sound I get. I've owned several of the Tech21 VT-bass pedals, and I think (now that I'm writing that) they are what planted the seed in my brain that I might actually like a tube amp.

Ampeg SVT or V4-B seem like the easy answer... but that seems like a minefield of its own. I live in L.A.... no, not that one, "Lower Alabama" (the Florida panhandle), and there's no quick way short of a six hour trip to Orlando that I'm going to be able to find examples to listen to. So I have no idea if the new stuff "has the mojo"... plus, understandably, nobody wants to ship a boat anchor partly made of thin glass. So, the right answer, go listen to some, is harder that it might otherwise be.

Is there any easy answer to my dilemma that isn't "get over it... the magic you seek doesn't exist"? Visiting Central Florida (Bass Central probably) is the answer. But I'm still going to post this :)
 
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#4
Greyfin10 said:
No specific reason, other than perhaps having tried a couple in the past that were underwhelming.
Click to expand...

Well, in that case, I understand your concern (I've been there).

Is there any easy answer to my dilemma that isn't "get over it... the magic you seek doesn't exist"?
Click to expand...

Neither. There's no easy answer, but I wouldn't say it doesn't exist. You're just in front of the rabbit whole, do you want to jump in?

You could begin with a Ampeg PF50T?
 
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#6
There does not appear to be any rush. Play whatever tube amps you can get your hands on, and maybe one will eventually beg you to take it home...and maybe it will never happen. IMHO, don't force it. We all have our own unique idea of beauty and what bass should sound like.

I have so many amps that I have lost count. I know it's over 50...I don't know for sure if it's over 60 yet. The vast majority of my amps would be considered all-tube. To be honest, I am more of a solid state guy, but I enjoy trying different sounds and trying to understand why someone might like a particular amp.

I tend to group different tube amps into Ampeg, Fender, and Hiwatt tone universes. The are all awesome in there own way, but I think I amp most at home in the Fender tone universe.

If your not collecting, try before you buy is really helpful because each model of tube amp tends to have it's own unique personality. Some may sound similar clean, but be very different when pushed. Or they may sound drastically different at all times.

Do research to get an idea of how different models of tube amps are perceived. "Tubey" is not one quality. Rather it's a composite of a range of qualities combined to give a certain playing experience. Try to figure out, name, and understand the range of qualities that create the perception of "tubey;" especially the ones you find most important. Then make some calls to find a place with amps you are are interested in and make a road trip. Or just watch the local classifieds and ask to demo whatever comes on the market. The ultimate goal is to find the specific "tubey" experience you like, and I suggest taking notes of your impressions.

I own a Genz Benz Shuttlemax 12.2. The tube channel on these amps are not particularly tubey, and the basic clean tone is not particularly different from the FET channel IMHO. The way the two channels behave when pushed to the edge is where most of the difference is.

If you want more of a tubey sound, try running both channels. Set the FET channel to get a basic sound and then go nuts with the tube channel. Crank the gain till it's just on the edge of distortion and adjust the EQ to emphasize the pushed tone and feel characteristic you think are tubey. The way I do this is to pretty much max out whichever tone controls on the tube channel produce the tone and feel I want. While adjusting the tone controls on the tube channel, reset the gain as required to produce the desired level of saturation. To further enhance the tubey characteristics, try applying a little dip on the FET channel that mirrors the boost you have applied to the tube channel. Also, try a little dip on the tube channels for EQ bands you are not peaking. Experiment and have fun.

Last point is to address your motives. In all honesty, a lot of my purchases were an attempt to regain the passion I once felt for playing music. I have had fun doing the research, building my collection, and engaging on TalkBass, but my passion for playing has not been restored. I am not particularly broke up about it as I think I think my collector/hoarding gene is fairly active. However, it's important to recognize that a collection represents a sizable investment that can be put to other uses.
 
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#8
Thanks for all the responses, but I particularly appreciate the detail you put into your explanations Wasnex... I will first try your suggestions on the ShuttleMax... realistically I don't spend nearly enough time trying to wring everything out of what I have... and neglecting EQ is a prime example. I think I tell myself "I can't hear much of a difference" as if that's that... I tried for a second, couldn't hear it, so I must not be ABLE to hear it. Feels a lot like how I engaged with anything challenging when I was young... I had a really bad habit of painting the world in two colors; things I was immediately good at, and things I would never be good at, so why try. Its only as I gained a little bit of wisdom in later years that I realized how damaging that attitude can be.

And yes, this is a completely different urge than what led me to the amps I used to gig with. I have no illusion that the sorts of tone I'm looking for would translate into a band environment... this is something I do only for my own amusement at home. When I very first started thinking in this direction, I seriously considered an Ampeg Flip-top for that reason... volume isn't really a goal. But like I said, these speakers came up a bargain and it led me down this dark path :)

Thanks again for all the feedback. Its all useful. I think I'd be more likely to consider a pre-amp than a Mesa... not because I don't believe the value of the latter, but because it is, again, something I have zero knowledge about. That being said... when I looked into what Bass Central had in stock earlier today... nothing Ampeg... a whole lot of Mesa. Doesn't mean it's the tone I'm looking for, but I'll probably eventually get to hear it at least.
 
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#11
Gervais Cote said:
I’m not really a fan of Aguilar amps but a friend of mine got this tube amp lately and it really turned his Am Pro Fender jazz bass into a tone monster, I couldn’t believe my ears !
If ever you can give it a try, it’s well worth the time !

DB 751
Click to expand...


Not really a tube amp. Tube preamp with solid state power section. Not saying it doesn’t sound good,but most people assume a tube power section when calling something a tube amp. Beacause the “amp” is actually tube and not just the preamp.
 
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#12
Scotty4string said:
Not really a tube amp. Tube preamp with solid state power section. Not saying it doesn’t sound good,but most people assume a tube power section when calling something a tube amp. Beacause the “amp” is actually tube and not just the preamp.
Click to expand...


DB751 is considered one of the more tubey sounding hybrids. Of the top of my head, I would say it sounds a lot like a Marshall VBA 400.
 
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#16
Scotty4string said:
Like I said, they sound real good. Not a tube amp because it has no power tubes. My Helix sounds pretty tubey. It’s still not a tube amp.
Click to expand...

True! Those are great!

My story:

I'm a guy who has owned Fender, Music Man, Ampeg, Mesa, and other tube amps, as well as Acoustic, Lab Series, and other solid state, plus rack systems after playing since 1976. I can say my Mesa TT-800 sounds as "tubey" as any SVT, V4, or B15, that I've played when dialed in correctly. AND it can sound like my Acoustic and Lab Series on the other channel if desired. It's ~8 pounds, draws very little 120v power, and includes an incredible manual to help you understand the settings. Also note, as an old fart, I'm playing music that was all recorded with SVT's, B15's, Bassmen, and Music Man tube heads.

As a side note, I've also dealt with bad tubes, microphonics, and damaged stuff due to heavy amps being mishandled by crews. It's not all rosy with tubes when playing different rooms every gig. Very different if the amp lives in a studio and rarely moves.

Never going back... ;)
 
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#17
IMO very much depends on the output tubes of your amp of choice. 6L6GT sounds different than EL34 sounds different than 6550, etc.

Whichever one you are tempted to get, be sure to check the rating of the power transformer to ensure it can handle some tube swapping. e.g. a KT66 can run just fine in a 6L6GT circuit IF the power transformer can handle the extra heater current required.
 
#18
My first amp was an Amp B-15 containing cocktail napkins from the many weddings it had seen. I must have paid about $150 for it because I used paper route money. Not anywhere near enough volume for a garage band of young delinquents. Soon the solid state craze hit and it was a series of Lab Series (great amps) and Hartkes up to my current Phil Jones Bass, which I love. Meanwhile, I'd occasionally run my bass through my 1966 Princeton Reverb (which I picked up during the aforementioned solid state craze for $25) and I loved the sound. I just didn't want to crank it on stage and blow out all the pre-CBS vibe it carried. Then I bought a modified (ny Tim Swartz) silverface Fender Bassman 100 head (c. early 1970s). Oh the creamy goodness! I had Tim put a switch on it so that it would run at either 100 clean and warm watts or 50 snarly hell hound warm watts. I love this thing!
The Bassman would be my go-to amp except for a couple things. Components in point-to-point hand-wired amps will go out unexpectedly and while they can easily be repaired, they can't be fixed on stage. But probably most important, the thing weighs a ton, which became a more important consideration after I broke my back in half. If you're a young guy, you won't mind hauling it around after hearing that sound.
Silverface Bassman amps are still available for pretty reasonable prices. Reverb has a bunch of them for around $700. Then find yourself a good amp tech down there in LA and the thing can be easily modded in any number of ways. A lot of guys have them "blackfaced" to get that classic Fender tone (the circuits are very similar). My guy Tim Swartz has his own tasty recipe of ideas from different era Fender and Marshall amps. Tone can be dialed to taste by a good amp tech using different values on the components (tubes, capacitors, resistors).
An old tube amp married to a good amp tech is a musical thing. I think you will love dipping more than your toe in if you're strong enough to carry it and patient enough to get it fixed occasionally.

P.S.- One way to look at repairs is that it CAN be fixed pretty easily. It can't die on you because there's no circuit board with microprocessors on it. If you're worried about it dying on stage, just bring a little 400w solid state backup head. I think mine weighs about 5 lbs so you can keep it in your pocket!
 
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