Considering dipping a toe into Tube Amps...

[shirojiro]

I feel like I went through a similar feeling over the past few years. I moved to a new city and have struggled to find a good playing situation for me, and I got tired of my gear.

I dabbled with tube guitar amps, and found that they can sound pretty good on bass through my Bag End S15 cabs.

But tube amps are finicky, and for me, I tend to come back to my GK amps which overdrive in a nice way to my ears. I practice and play quiet jams with an old MB150s and use a 400RB or 800RB with the Bag End cabs.

I think once you have a certain amount of decent quality gear, getting new or different stuff doesn't ignite the same excitement that it used to. There's that initial newness that can stimulate your playing for a bit, but the gear itself doesn't drive things the way it used to for me when I had one bass and one amp.

I don't know why sometimes inspiration hits and makes me want to woodshed or find new people to play with, but I recently have rediscovered Jazz and want to work on my reading, walking, and soloing. I found some older retired gents who play a bunch of old Horace Silver tunes and other standards and jammed with them last night. I think that kind of situation is more likely for me to reignite some musical passion.

Good luck with your journey. I don't think that you're alone in this feeling.

 

[Ron Berenato]

My experience - I grew up on solid state Peavey's. Then I graduated to the mighty Mesa Boogie 400+. More tubes than you would think they could fit inside one head. Phenomenal sound. Loudest amp I've ever played through. After a year or two, I went back to my solid state Peavey. My ear just loved the hard attack of the solid state power amp and I got the tube tone I thought I wanted with just a single tube Peavey rack mount preamp.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Note: This is long and rambly... sorry. I really don't know where to start on this one

Ok, this is the definition of setting myself up to fail, but I recently got a deal on a couple of Ampeg cabs (410 and 115) and their mere presence has been whispering for me to challenge my previous habits and enter the world of black magic and imagination.

Specifically, I've been running "modern" sounding amps pretty much since I've played bass... first amp was a Univox combo, then I upgraded to a Peavey Mk IV, then a Megabass through an 1810 cab, and in recent years Genz Benz amps (main being a ShuttleMax 12.0). I am historically a devotee of the new... the clean... the light... etcetera.

But, to be blunt, I'm bored with it all... so I'm considering spending money on amp technology I don't really believe in, in the hope that it'll reignite my interest. Its the tension between what I would like to be true, and what I suspect is true. Also, I'm not really all that sure I trust my ears in this sort of thing... I either just like it or I don't. So, yeah. Setting myself up to spend money and be dissatisfied is what I'm doing.

The aforementioned ShuttleMax ostensibly has a tube preamp circuit, but I don't really care for the sound I get. I've owned several of the Tech21 VT-bass pedals, and I think (now that I'm writing that) they are what planted the seed in my brain that I might actually like a tube amp.

Ampeg SVT or V4-B seem like the easy answer... but that seems like a minefield of its own. I live in L.A.... no, not that one, "Lower Alabama" (the Florida panhandle), and there's no quick way short of a six hour trip to Orlando that I'm going to be able to find examples to listen to. So I have no idea if the new stuff "has the mojo"... plus, understandably, nobody wants to ship a boat anchor partly made of thin glass. So, the right answer, go listen to some, is harder that it might otherwise be.

Is there any easy answer to my dilemma that isn't "get over it... the magic you seek doesn't exist"? Visiting Central Florida (Bass Central probably) is the answer. But I'm still going to post this

Or go north to to Birmingham or west to Mobile instead of Florida? There has to be some shops there.

One other idea, is to make an equipment sojourn. A mini vacation with a goal of finding if this is indeed what you want. You seem to have a clear goal in mind sound wise, and that is going to take time.

Another idea, Guitar center has a 100% money back satisfaction guarantee on their used gear. Just keep ordering and returning until you find the one that scratching your itch.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

First, a tube preamp will not get you what you want. Preamp tubes will help a little, but the tube amp sound comes from the power amp tubes.
Unless you are playing large venues, the SVT is overkill. I gigged in the 70s with a V4B and an 8x10 fridge. You may want to include the Fender Bassman 100T in you review list. It is a very good tube amp.
I personally love tube amps. They have a warm natural sound no solid state amp has.

 

[HolmeBass]

Note: This is long and rambly... sorry. I really don't know where to start on this one

Ok, this is the definition of setting myself up to fail, but I recently got a deal on a couple of Ampeg cabs (410 and 115) and their mere presence has been whispering for me to challenge my previous habits and enter the world of black magic and imagination.

Specifically, I've been running "modern" sounding amps pretty much since I've played bass... first amp was a Univox combo, then I upgraded to a Peavey Mk IV, then a Megabass through an 1810 cab, and in recent years Genz Benz amps (main being a ShuttleMax 12.0). I am historically a devotee of the new... the clean... the light... etcetera.

But, to be blunt, I'm bored with it all... so I'm considering spending money on amp technology I don't really believe in, in the hope that it'll reignite my interest. Its the tension between what I would like to be true, and what I suspect is true. Also, I'm not really all that sure I trust my ears in this sort of thing... I either just like it or I don't. So, yeah. Setting myself up to spend money and be dissatisfied is what I'm doing.

The aforementioned ShuttleMax ostensibly has a tube preamp circuit, but I don't really care for the sound I get. I've owned several of the Tech21 VT-bass pedals, and I think (now that I'm writing that) they are what planted the seed in my brain that I might actually like a tube amp.

Ampeg SVT or V4-B seem like the easy answer... but that seems like a minefield of its own. I live in L.A.... no, not that one, "Lower Alabama" (the Florida panhandle), and there's no quick way short of a six hour trip to Orlando that I'm going to be able to find examples to listen to. So I have no idea if the new stuff "has the mojo"... plus, understandably, nobody wants to ship a boat anchor partly made of thin glass. So, the right answer, go listen to some, is harder that it might otherwise be.

Is there any easy answer to my dilemma that isn't "get over it... the magic you seek doesn't exist"? Visiting Central Florida (Bass Central probably) is the answer. But I'm still going to post this

Call ahead first. On my last visit there, just over two years ago, the gear in stock on the floor was no where near as cool as when I visited in 2015.

 

[Jefenator]

What I enjoy about tube power is my perception of the dynamic response. When I hit harder, I get some tangible extra "bite", probably in the form of distortion. (A good tube pre can be nice but only takes one so far IME.)
I like it especially for rock & Americana - I have also dabbled with using it for my double bass for nuanced cocktail jazz. I've retreated to solid state for that for now. Class D has its place when I want something more clean, powerful, predictable and/or practical.
Not all tube heads are created equal; voicing, compression & breakup vary quite a bit. Some models have been disappointing or downright frustrating for me. But when it all comes together... there's nothing like it.
As with most other things I've dabbled in, trial & error has been part & parcel.

 

[Grinderman]

Some people--@Grinderman--can be drawn to controlled overkill.

 

[KevInDaBassment]

If you are just playing at your house or small venues the Ampeg Pf20T, if you are playing moderate sized venues PF50T, if you have PA support either will work.

This would be my suggestion ^

IF you can find one for a good price, the Traynor YBA200 amps are very solid contenders as well. If volume really isn't going to be a concern (doing this at home or with PA support live), I'd go for the Ampeg PFs. They sound really freakin good, even with stock tubes.

 

[Parzival]

Or go north to to Birmingham or west to Mobile instead of Florida? There has to be some shops there.

One other idea, is to make an equipment sojourn. A mini vacation with a goal of finding if this is indeed what you want. You seem to have a clear goal in mind sound wise, and that is going to take time.

Another idea, Guitar center has a 100% money back satisfaction guarantee on their used gear. Just keep ordering and returning until you find the one that scratching your itch.

I don’t think you’ll find any all tube bass amps in Birmingham unless it’s from a private seller. Guitar Center and Bailey Brothers don’t have them. Clay sold Baileys to some national company and it’s a shell of its former self.

 

[amper]

Big iron tube amps (200 W and up) I would recommend:

Mesa/Boogie D-180 (180 W), Buster! Bass, Bass 400, Bass 400+ (with reservations, it requires 12x 6L6GC power tubes, twice as many as the original Bass 400), Strategy Eight:88, Prodigy Four:88
Trace Elliot QuadValve, HexaValve, V-Type, V4, V6, V8
Ampeg SVT (any version)
Demeter VTHF-300M power amp
Aguilar DB728 power amp
Eden VT300B
Sunn 300T
Fender Studio Bass (if you convert it to a head, would not recommend gigging with the original combo format, tall, skinny, physically unstable)

Just off the top of my head, there might be others I’ve forgot about.

 

[amper]

And then there is the issue of "matched tubes".

Tubes do not really need to be matched, they just need to be tested to be within spec. The typical long tail pair phase inverter is not entirely equal in output, anyway, not by design, and not even when you pop in a “matched” phase inverter tube. If you end up with equal output, it’s entirely by accident, if the inherent mismatch of the PI circuit is cancelled out by the inherent mismatch of the two triodes inside the PI tube.

If you have a Mesa amp, just buy Mesa tubes with the same “color” rating as were originally shipped with the amp, and you will never need to worry about buying matched dozens for a Bass 400+.

 

[amper]

FTR, tube amps are not any more “finicky” than solid-state amps, when they are in good repair. They are, however, somewhat more fragile, so you do have to handle them with a little more care. Not “kid gloves”, but they don’t survive physical shocks as well as most solid state amps will, so don’t drop them off the stage or the back of the truck.

A lot of the reputation that tube amps have been plastered with about reliability has more to do with age than with any inherent fragility of tube amp architecture. A brand new tube amp will be every bit as reliable as a brand new solid state amp—aside from the tubes, the rest of the amp is solid state. When they get to be decades old, as many tube amps are, solid state amps can also begin to suffer from reliability issues, often relating to failing electrolytic capacitors or oxidized connectors.

The tubes, unfortunately, do have some issues. Failures are rare, but they do happen. A thermionic valve is nothing more than a glorified incandescent or halogen light bulb. Light bulbs are so reliable that we rarely think about them, but they do have a limited lifespan, and defects in the vacuum envelope can happen.

 

[bucephylus]

Note: This is long and rambly... sorry. I really don't know where to start on this one

Ok, this is the definition of setting myself up to fail, but I recently got a deal on a couple of Ampeg cabs (410 and 115) and their mere presence has been whispering for me to challenge my previous habits and enter the world of black magic and imagination.

Specifically, I've been running "modern" sounding amps pretty much since I've played bass... first amp was a Univox combo, then I upgraded to a Peavey Mk IV, then a Megabass through an 1810 cab, and in recent years Genz Benz amps (main being a ShuttleMax 12.0). I am historically a devotee of the new... the clean... the light... etcetera.

But, to be blunt, I'm bored with it all... so I'm considering spending money on amp technology I don't really believe in, in the hope that it'll reignite my interest. Its the tension between what I would like to be true, and what I suspect is true. Also, I'm not really all that sure I trust my ears in this sort of thing... I either just like it or I don't. So, yeah. Setting myself up to spend money and be dissatisfied is what I'm doing.

The aforementioned ShuttleMax ostensibly has a tube preamp circuit, but I don't really care for the sound I get. I've owned several of the Tech21 VT-bass pedals, and I think (now that I'm writing that) they are what planted the seed in my brain that I might actually like a tube amp.

Ampeg SVT or V4-B seem like the easy answer... but that seems like a minefield of its own. I live in L.A.... no, not that one, "Lower Alabama" (the Florida panhandle), and there's no quick way short of a six hour trip to Orlando that I'm going to be able to find examples to listen to. So I have no idea if the new stuff "has the mojo"... plus, understandably, nobody wants to ship a boat anchor partly made of thin glass. So, the right answer, go listen to some, is harder that it might otherwise be.

Is there any easy answer to my dilemma that isn't "get over it... the magic you seek doesn't exist"? Visiting Central Florida (Bass Central probably) is the answer. But I'm still going to post this

There are several dimensions to amp prefs.

Couple of Q’s.

First, is this discomfort related to not getting tone you want on gigs? Or is it a practice space thing?
Reason for asking is I find that I’m personally much more discriminating about my amp prefs in the practice space. Sitting in an amplified Pop music mix is generally less about having somewhat subtle improvements, and much more about NOT having certain aspects, which mess up the mix. Ergo, I’m pretty comfortable with a higher performance combo on the gig; whereas, I have more subtle prefs practicing at home. But, perhaps, that’s my own problem.

Second, what aspects of tubes are you seeking?
There are preamp tubes and power tubes; and different amps use them in different ways. Which makes for difficulty with generalities. I always prefer clean sound; but, I do find the “clean” sound on an SVT to be desireable, mainly because of the preamp circuit. I am not a power amp distortion kind of player; a la Pappalardi or Casady. For my prefs, a GOOD tube preamp stage gets the job done. I’m perfectly happy with my Demeter amps in that respect. I also still have a ShuttleMAX 12.0. GREAT amp; but, the tube channel does not have the preamp character I associate with tube input. The mark of an active tube input stage is that you can hear differences when you roll different tubes. The recent Mesa amps have this character, as do the Demeter units.

If you are seeking power amp distortion, someone else will have to comment. I adore the SVT in “clean” mode, but find the V4B underwhelming. Another player who drives the output stage into distortion might well have a different perspective. Main reason for mentioning is that you might want to clarify in your mind what you are after, before purchasing more gear.

GL

 

[Smokey P]

This is slightly lighter than my Mesa 400

And Buddha accompanies me.

Called simply the Bass Pre-Amp. It's what became the VTBP-201S by James Demeter but back then he called his company Innovative Audio Systems into Peavey Classic 50/50 power amplifier which bridged mono is 100 watts. The 8 little bulldogs EL-84s give this setup a really punchy sound as opposed to the Mesa. I think it is an ultralinear design, has to be to get that much wattage out of 8 EL-84s. Different power amp growl but I hardly crank it that much. An efficient cab makes this useable at most gigs even if I do not go through FOH> The pre-amp has a Jensen transformer for the DI



View attachment 5441628

ahhh, i have really considered doing this kind of set up. I have a tube preamp that I really love and use everywhere, usually ampless or into the fx return on a backlined amp. But i've thought about for my local gigs and jazz gigs using that preamp into a low watt tube poweramp. I have a super efficient 112 that would work for smaller gigs and can add a second one for big stuff. Does cranking the power amp high get like very fuzzy or is it kind of a tube squish? i dont want to have like a dirty tone but i like some character and color. I guess part of my question is how low wattage do you think I can go before it would either be too quiet or too fuzzy?

 

[Wasnex]

Does cranking the power amp high get like very fuzzy or is it kind of a tube squish? i dont want to have like a dirty tone but i like some character and color.

The answer will depend on the gear you choose and how hard you crank it.

In general all amps transition from clean, to compressed, to distorted. But each amp tends to do it a different way. I recently bought an EBS T90. It has a wide window from clean to highly compressed. But once it hits the wall, it transitions in and out of distortion suddenly. So IMHO it great for squish, but not so great for drive (YMMV).

I guess part of my question is how low wattage do you think I can go before it would either be too quiet or too fuzzy?

This will depend on your volume needs, your tone goals, and the cab you choose.

 

[Jazzdogg]

Note: This is long and rambly... sorry. I really don't know where to start on this one

Ok, this is the definition of setting myself up to fail, but I recently got a deal on a couple of Ampeg cabs (410 and 115) and their mere presence has been whispering for me to challenge my previous habits and enter the world of black magic and imagination.

Specifically, I've been running "modern" sounding amps pretty much since I've played bass... first amp was a Univox combo, then I upgraded to a Peavey Mk IV, then a Megabass through an 1810 cab, and in recent years Genz Benz amps (main being a ShuttleMax 12.0). I am historically a devotee of the new... the clean... the light... etcetera.

But, to be blunt, I'm bored with it all... so I'm considering spending money on amp technology I don't really believe in, in the hope that it'll reignite my interest. Its the tension between what I would like to be true, and what I suspect is true. Also, I'm not really all that sure I trust my ears in this sort of thing... I either just like it or I don't. So, yeah. Setting myself up to spend money and be dissatisfied is what I'm doing.

The aforementioned ShuttleMax ostensibly has a tube preamp circuit, but I don't really care for the sound I get. I've owned several of the Tech21 VT-bass pedals, and I think (now that I'm writing that) they are what planted the seed in my brain that I might actually like a tube amp.

Ampeg SVT or V4-B seem like the easy answer... but that seems like a minefield of its own. I live in L.A.... no, not that one, "Lower Alabama" (the Florida panhandle), and there's no quick way short of a six hour trip to Orlando that I'm going to be able to find examples to listen to. So I have no idea if the new stuff "has the mojo"... plus, understandably, nobody wants to ship a boat anchor partly made of thin glass. So, the right answer, go listen to some, is harder that it might otherwise be.

Is there any easy answer to my dilemma that isn't "get over it... the magic you seek doesn't exist"? Visiting Central Florida (Bass Central probably) is the answer. But I'm still going to post this

You might want to start by listing the characteristics you expect to find in a tube amp. The road to disappointment is paved with unrealistic expectations.

I know what I like about tube amps, what I dislike, and and the trade-offs and compromises involved, because I've owned and gigged tube amps since the sixties. Your needs are likely to be different from mine.

The better you define your needs and expectations, the better the help and advice you'll receive on TB.

Good luck!