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Continuous arpeggio exercise - B7b13 question

I'm doing a continuous scale exercise over Autumn Leaves, in various keys, over 5 frets, starting as low as possible and ascending as far as possible using the next chord tone up, then descending by going to the next chord tone down. So 1 3 5 7s, altered as per the chord. It's forcing me to recognize a wider range of options for walking. V. good.

BUT given that, a question on the B7b13 chord (in the key of G; it'd be D7b13 in the key of Bb). And I DO understand this is an artificial problem, resulting from the constraints of this exercise.
That chord's spelled 1 3 b7 b13, B D# A G. OKish ascending, although the 5 fret constraint means I have to play the G below the A, but that G sounds wrong when it's the lowest note in the chord (duh...). So I'm playing the 5 descending (the F#).
Alternatively I could just ignore the extension approach and do the 135b7.

Any thoughts?
 
If you're doing arpeggio exercises like this, I wouldn't skip anything. Looks like you're leaving out the 5th and a 9th. With a dominant chord in a minor 2-5, you've got your choice of b9 or #9.

The harmony that provides the basis for b13's and such is the melodic minor scale. Rather than taking an altered dominant chord out of context and only thinking of what the transcriptionist thought the chord should be in that measure, you want to be aware of all the possibilities that can happen with these types of chords. Piano and guitar players can, and usually will, throw in b9's or #9's into a structure like this.

If you're playing a bass line, I wouldn't worry about extensions. You'll probably want to play a #5 instead of a regular 5, since that will fit in nicely if the piano/guitar is playing a b13 (they probably will). If you're soloing over a minor 2-5 and your dominant chord is B7(b9#9b13/whatever else), a C melodic minor scale, and the arpeggios derived from it, works well. Or you could think in terms of B altered (7th mode of C melodic minor). Same scale, different starting point.
 
I'm doing a continuous scale exercise over Autumn Leaves, in various keys, over 5 frets, starting as low as possible and ascending as far as possible using the next chord tone up, then descending by going to the next chord tone down. So 1 3 5 7s, altered as per the chord. It's forcing me to recognize a wider range of options for walking. V. good.

BUT given that, a question on the B7b13 chord (in the key of G; it'd be D7b13 in the key of Bb). And I DO understand this is an artificial problem, resulting from the constraints of this exercise.
That chord's spelled 1 3 b7 b13, B D# A G. OKish ascending, although the 5 fret constraint means I have to play the G below the A, but that G sounds wrong when it's the lowest note in the chord (duh...). So I'm playing the 5 descending (the F#).
Alternatively I could just ignore the extension approach and do the 135b7.

Any thoughts?
That B7b13 has also an alt 9th (b9). But the main chord is a B7 built on the E minor Harmonic scale. It is the dominant Harmonic or Spanish scale. It is just a B7 with the b9(#9) and b6 in the scale.
 
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I'm doing a continuous scale exercise over Autumn Leaves, in various keys, over 5 frets, starting as low as possible and ascending as far as possible using the next chord tone up, then descending by going to the next chord tone down. So 1 3 5 7s, altered as per the chord. It's forcing me to recognize a wider range of options for walking. V. good.

BUT given that, a question on the B7b13 chord (in the key of G; it'd be D7b13 in the key of Bb). And I DO understand this is an artificial problem, resulting from the constraints of this exercise.
That chord's spelled 1 3 b7 b13, B D# A G. OKish ascending, although the 5 fret constraint means I have to play the G below the A, but that G sounds wrong when it's the lowest note in the chord (duh...). So I'm playing the 5 descending (the F#).
Alternatively I could just ignore the extension approach and do the 135b7.

Any thoughts?
The practical name of the V7 in minor is Dominant Phrygian FYI. I forgot the name when I wrote it :-)

The other very important thing I forgot to mention above is that the x7(b13) is less and less used as a chord symbol because it is not right in many aspects.

The first one is that the b13 is the same note as the #5. And because it is written b13 that means all the other notes below are included but not mentioned and the perfect 5th is in the chord as well and you cannot have the P5 and the #5 at the same time in the chord. It clashes either as a semitone or even worst as a minor ninth interval which is the most dissonant interval in music. So like I said in this context your best choice is to play a regular B7 but keep in mind that b9,(#9) and b6 are in the scale. The Phrygian dominant scale doesn't have the #9 but the real Phrygian has it so just add the M3 (D#) and you'll be ok ;-)
 
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You're overthinking it. Specifically in the context of the song "Autumn Leaves" it's just a V7 chord in a minor key.

You should be studying transcriptions of "real" bass lines to "Autumn Leaves." For example look at this Sam Jones transcription. It's in the key of G minor, so the chord in question is D7. Let's look at the notes Sam Jones actually plays over that D7 chord each time it occurs:

D D F#
D D F#
D D F#
D D C# D D A D F#
D D F#
D D
(sax solo begins)
D E F F#
D E F F#
D E F F# A C# D A D
D E F F#
D D Ab Ab
(etc., I will let you take it from here)

Your assertion that we should emphasize the b13 note (Bb in this key) or avoid the 5 (A in this key) is not borne out by this Sam Jones example. Jones seems to be treating it as a "normal" D7 chord and emphasizing the notes D and F# (root and 3rd) in his bass lines. If you keep listening, he even plays some B naturals under the D7 chord, later in the song.
 
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You're overthinking it. Specifically in the context of the song "Autumn Leaves" it's just a V7 chord in a minor key.

You should be studying transcriptions of "real" bass lines to "Autumn Leaves." For example look at this Sam Jones transcription. It's in the key of G minor, so the chord in question is D7. Let's look at the notes Sam Jones actually plays over that D7 chord each time it occurs:

D D F#
D D F#
D D F#
D D C# D D A D F#
D D F#
D D
(sax solo begins)
D E F F#
D E F F#
D E F F# A C# D A D
D E F F#
D D Ab Ab
(etc., I will let you take it from here)

Your assertion that we should emphasize the b13 note (Bb in this key) or avoid the 5 (A in this key) is not borne out by this Sam Jones example. Jones seems to be treating it as a "normal" D7 chord and emphasizing the notes D and F# (root and 3rd) in his bass lines. If you keep listening, he even plays some B naturals under the D7 chord, later in the song.

Overthinking it? Qui, moi?? I began this thread with the caveat that *in this instance* I'm using Autumn Leaves as a vehicle to improve my fluency in chord voicings, walking, etc. So not a question about how to play it in battle, as it were. When I'm actually playing this with the crew, I'm playing a regular dominant. And in fact, doing the exercise, I've pretty much come back to playing it as a dominant... I do find, though, that I come back from these excursions down rabbit holes with a lot more background info. All good.
 
The practical name of the V7 in minor is Dominant Phrygian FYI. I forgot the name when I wrote it :)

The other very important thing I forgot to mention above is that the x7(b13) is less and less used as a chord symbol because it is not right in many aspects.

The first one is that the b13 is the same note as the #5. And because it is written b13 that means all the other notes below are included but not mentioned and the perfect 5th is in the chord as well and you cannot have the P5 and the #5 at the same time in the chord. It clashes either as a semitone or even worst as a minor ninth interval which is the most dissonant interval in music. So like I said in this context your best choice is to play a regular B7 but keep in mind that b9,(#9) and b6 are in the scale. The Phrygian dominant scale doesn't have the #9 but the real Phrygian has it so just add the M3 (D#) and you'll be ok ;-)

That's nicely put. I think it's that "not rightness" that's been making me keep digging. I have rolled back to playing it as a dominant... but with those extensions floating in the background of my mind "should need arise"!
You remind me that one of the eye-openers I got reading Mark Levine's Jazz Theory was that music theory isn't immutable. Chords and their use have changed with time... sometimes as the greats got a bit bored and wanted to give the envelope a kicking!
BTW, the huge Levine eye-opener - this was very, very early in my coming to jazz and music theory - was that a song can go through several keys. What??!! Surely not!!! The universe rocked on its axis. Talk about a voyage of discovery.
Thanks, Groove Master!
 
That's nicely put. I think it's that "not rightness" that's been making me keep digging. I have rolled back to playing it as a dominant... but with those extensions floating in the background of my mind "should need arise"!
You remind me that one of the eye-openers I got reading Mark Levine's Jazz Theory was that music theory isn't immutable. Chords and their use have changed with time... sometimes as the greats got a bit bored and wanted to give the envelope a kicking!
BTW, the huge Levine eye-opener - this was very, very early in my coming to jazz and music theory - was that a song can go through several keys. What??!! Surely not!!! The universe rocked on its axis. Talk about a voyage of discovery.
Thanks, Groove Master!
You're welcome :-)

Yes Levine's book is really good :)

Also if you have one of the New Real Book by Sher Music, the chords page at the beginning is awesome ;-)
 
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You remind me that one of the eye-openers I got reading Mark Levine's Jazz Theory was that music theory isn't immutable. Chords and their use have changed with time... sometimes as the greats got a bit bored and wanted to give the envelope a kicking!
Yes it is true that it is mutable.
Chord symbols were created to simplify the intended sound in an easy way and rules were made up to do this just like the last extension written contains all the lower ones for example to make it simple. But if you don't know the basic rules of harmony like on a x11 chord you have to omit the third then problems start to occur and eventually the C11 as an example started to be replaced by Bb/C which represent the same sound but in a more accurate and safer way. Same goes with the B7(b13) that got replaced by something like B+7 or B7(#5) because you have to know that the fifth as to be omitted. The Sher chords page should be like the standardization of chord symbols imho. Good luck in your journey ;-)
 
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I guess I killed this conversation. Sorry.

If you want to play music, especially jazz, it would really benefit you to understand at least the 7 Diatonic, 5 Pentatonic scales and 3 symmetrical scales. 13 scales. That will cover pretty much all of the blues, rock and most of the jazz stuff you need to know.
 
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I guess I killed this conversation. Sorry.

If you want to play music, especially jazz, it would really benefit you to understand at least the 7 Diatonic, 5 Pentatonic scales and 3 symmetrical scales. 13 scales. That will cover pretty much all of the blues, rock and most of the jazz stuff you need to know.
That’s true, and I’ve woodshedded my way through Coker, Ray Brown and the like. What I’m getting at here is developing the ability when walking to go to the nearest chord (or scale) tone. That is, to loosen the gravitational attraction of the root so as to be able to smooth out a walking line when appropriate. And to make a smooth transition between scales used throughout the form.
And you didn’t kill the conversation - yesterday I finally figured out how to get the tone I want out of my Alembic Series 1, after a long time trying. I was on the verge of selling it, and all of a sudden it showed what it could do. So I was a little absorbed!
And I’m glad I’m not the only one who makes scale/chord charts of the various forms of harmony!
 
For me the most importants scales are the Major scale and its modes, minor Harmonic (especially the dominant Phrygian mode) and the Melodic minor and its modes for very specific use. Then you can add the Blues scale ( Major and minor).

Also the trick is to make those 7-notes scales 8-notes scales by adding an extra note for chromaticism and to fall perfectly on the harmony grid. ( All chord tones fall on the downbeats or 1&3 if walking). I usually add the M7 on all chords that have a minor7. On Major7 I will add the #5. Those are the bebop scales ;-)
 
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That’s true, and I’ve woodshedded my way through Coker, Ray Brown and the like. What I’m getting at here is developing the ability when walking to go to the nearest chord (or scale) tone. That is, to loosen the gravitational attraction of the root so as to be able to smooth out a walking line when appropriate. And to make a smooth transition between scales used throughout the form.
And you didn’t kill the conversation - yesterday I finally figured out how to get the tone I want out of my Alembic Series 1, after a long time trying. I was on the verge of selling it, and all of a sudden it showed what it could do. So I was a little absorbed!
And I’m glad I’m not the only one who makes scale/chord charts of the various forms of harmony!

Ray Brown is good stuff and can be readily adapted to electric bass. He played electric bass too (on the Merv Griffin show). I adapted his upright style to OFPF for electric.

You may already know this, but learning the seven positions that go with the major scale and its inversions will teach you the finger fluency for chord tones all over the neck. Once you have those patterns wired in your brain and can hear them, the importance of the positione per se becomes less important. This is a little more apparent with OFPF than Simandl technique. PS, another reason not to trust tab.

Ray Brown's playing style is very much about position and fluid shufting. If you study his walking lines and solos, you will see that very clearly. You will see a lot of his phrases involve passing tones instead of chord tones. He also goes beyond that to just fluid playing that isnt rooted in position, but the path to that mastery takes you through position playing first.

One common error in bass soloing is always starting solos on the root and gravitating to it. If you master the inversions on the neck and in your head, you will sound much more musical. For example, if the key is C and the Chord is C , kick your solo off with a phrase based around G Mixolydian or D Dorian and using the appropriate position.

If you are playing Autumn Leaves ( a great song for learning the almost diatonic changes) and you find yourself playing the same position for a given chord, stop and reconsider what other inversion options would work. If its in G, you could play Am all the way through and sound like Pat Martino (exagerrating). Learn to make phrases based on the correct diatonic position, then learn to make phrases using the alternates to the usual diatonic poitions.

Finally, look at the Melodic and Harmonic minor as being alterations of the Major diatonic system, rather than a totally new scale. For example, the 2nd degree of the Melodic Minor is the Dorian b2. Extending this....

Melodic Minor (4 degree) = Lydian b7
Melodic Minor 5th degree = Mixolydian b6
Melodic Minor 6th degree = Aeolian b5
Melodic Minor 7th Degree = Locrian b4

Do you see the pattern??? Also, this breaks down for the 3rd degree which is a Lydian Augmented instead of a Phrygian flat something. Why???

The Harmonic Minor scale has two alterations from the major (b3 and b6) and the above system breaks down except for the Mixolydian b2b6 and Super Locrian - Locrian B4, bb7. Calling the the 5th degree the Phrygian Dominant is more common, but obscures whats going on - a Mixolydian b2 b6 or Mixolydian b9b13 if you prefer.

Finally, once you know all the above rules, learn how to break them as the occasional passing tones and "wrong notes" are what catches the listeners ears.

Good Luck
 
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Remember when you were back at school, and before exams you'd go through the books and notes and make flash cards, revision charts, that kind of thing? (Well, I did, anyway... a born nerd!)
After I'd taken my first pass through Levine, I was overwhelmed by all the info - so, yes, I made a summary chart of harmony (attached). It's a useful map of "home" areas, and areas to be explored. Bebop is one area I've not looked at.. yet....!

In re breaking rules, our keys player is also an experimental composer/videographer, and derives impish pleasure from every now and again going walkabout and making "wrong" notions work perfectly. Me.. I try to think of my screwups as frighteningly sophisticated dissonance! ; )
 

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