Contradictions regarding fretless intonation

[SweetKetchup]

Following Gary Willis' advice I set up my fretless (unlined) like this: Invalid Link Removed so that I play on the side dot up to the 9th-10th fret and increasingly behind the side dot afterwards. But then after browsing the bass sub-reddit and watching some YouTube videos, I see that some people play exactly on the side marker or fretline everywhere on the neck
(example: ),
so I have no idea who is right. I'd like to play on the side marker everywhere, but the way my bass is set up right now seems to side with Gary Willis.

 

[Flippy]

do whatever feels better to you

edit: as long as you're still in tune

 

[RSBBass]

Yep do what works for you. The best bet is to train your ear so you don't need the markers. Than you can pick up any fretless and play it.

 

[Nev375]

Not every player bothers setting their string intonation on a fretless. They just use their ears and fingers.

The notes are where the notes are, not where the lines are.

 

[mmon77]

IMO, all that really matters is that the strings are intonated the same relative to each other.

 

[bholder]

Not every player bothers setting their string intonation on a fretless. They just use their ears and fingers.

The notes are where the notes are, not where the lines are.

Of course, the notes ought to be where the lines are. "In Theory, Theory and Practice are identical. In Practice, however, they are not."

 

[mmon77]

I think too many people get hung up on the lines/dots, or lack thereof when transitioning to fretless. Just play along with some sort of pitch reference, either external or use an open string as a drone note, and train your ears. I didn't find it nearly as hard as I thought it would be once I got over my initial hangups of the lack of frets or position markers. Once you get in the correct position to start, as long as your fingering technique is decent, your fingers will just instinctively land in the right spot when playing up and down the strings.

That and I think the unlined boards just look much cooler

 

[DevinWard369]

It's hard for me also, my muscle memory keeps getting hung up on my brain thinkin I'm in the wrong spot.

 

[JRA]

it really is 'all in your ear'!

i'm playing unlined boards (with side dots). the dots are great for a reference, but you have to 'hear the note' to fine tune as you play. i'm in agreement with the previous posters: ears.

best of luck, SweetKetchup !

two of my instruments (cheap) came to me with side dots mislocated, so i had to blacken them in order not to get goofy. i decided that i'd re-install them "just for me" taking into account my fingers, my finger width, my line of sight, yada yada. i'm very happy with this idiosyncratic arrangement. but i'm just as accurate (or inaccurate!) on my fretlesses with proper factory placement of dots.

 

[JRA]

an additional thought/concept: some cats tune their instrument ever-so-slightly sharp (ron carter did this on DB) or flat (some others) to compensate for their preferred approach/technique. i'm not advocating this, but whatever gets the job done seems reasonable, especially on a fretless instrument!

 

[Bob_Ross]

The notes are where the notes are, not where the lines are.

...except for when the notes are where the lines are. Serendipity.

 

[tlc1976]

I agree use your ears, and muscle memory, but when you're jumping or sliding to a different spot a considerable distance away, it really helps to have a target point. That's primarily what I use the dots for. I prefer an unlined board with side dots AT the common dotted note locations. The rest I can interpolate pretty quickly.

 

[Turnaround]

Part of it depends on the manufacture of the bass. Some basses have fret lines where the frets would occur. In such a case you need to place your finger just behind the line. Some manufacturers make fretless lines right where you need to place your finger. Same with side dots.

So you need to intonate so that it's consistent all over the board, whether it's on the line of just behind it. Or ignore the lines altogether.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Some manufacturers make fretless lines right where you need to place your finger.

Have you ever actually seen that, Richard? I've never seen manufacturers or small builders put fretless lines anywhere other than normal fret positions. Side dots, yes, particularly on unlined fretless necks. But I've always seen the lines located right on the standard calculated positions. Not being argumentative, just curious.

Now, on some pre-1970 instruments, those calculated positions can be all screwy....but that's another story.

For reference, I mostly play fretless, and I like an unlined board with side dots only, at the 1, 3, 5, 7 etc. fret positions. I agree with most of the posters here that the dots are just for the quick glance position reference. The notes are by ear. I don't try to accurately visually align my fingers with the dots.

 

[Turnaround]

Have you ever actually seen that, Richard? I've never seen manufacturers or small builders put fretless lines anywhere other than normal fret positions. Side dots, yes, particularly on unlined fretless necks. But I've always seen the lines located right on the standard calculated positions. Not being argumentative, just curious.

I probably misspoke. Certainly is true of side dots which appear in their regular position (between fret positions), where the frets would be, and slightly ahead of where frets would be. As for fret lines, there's only one bass I worked on where the lines were put where you place the centre of your finger (back of where the fret would be), but that was a one-off custom build, and it may have been at the request of the customer.

 

[darwin-bass]

It has been a while since I played fretless. Aren't the notes at the edge of your finger rather than directly under it? Fingers are wide and squishy. If you pin the string with your finger directly over the line, your finger squishes and flattens making the effective string length a bit less than the center of your finger would imply.

So you should always have your finger slightly behind the note position, with maybe 2/3 of you finger behind the line.

Or am I all outta wack on this?

 

[40Hz]

I've yet to play any fretless where the notes were exactly on the markers in all positions all the time, no matter how it was set up. To borrow from Captain Barbarossa, it's: "…more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules." So I tend not to be as concerned with absolute intonation adjustments on a fretless as I am with a fretted bass. On a fretted bass I'm a fanatic about it. On fretless I'm considerably more tolerant about it as long as it's fairly accurate and in close relation to the other strings.

Here's the thing…if you look at a fretted bass, notice how narrow the top of a fret is. Notice too how it has a uniform hardness? Now look at your fingertips. Notice how they're much larger than the width of the top of a fret. And how they're not uniformly firm over their entire surface area? That's where the 'slop factor' is that can lead to bad intonation until you develop consistency and more precision in your fingertip placements. That's something that only comes with experience (i.e. practice).

There's also the parallax optical illusion. You may think you're playing straight across the fingerboard. And it may even look like it from your perspective. But somebody standing in front watching you will see you're actually angling down or up from the note points when you switch strings. So if something "looks right but sounds wrong" five will get you ten that's what's happening. You can check it by holding the note you're playing and tilt the neck toward you to see where you're actually stopping the note. (I catch myself doing this all the time if I've been neglecting my fretless practice time - and which I'm shamed to admit I have been neglecting lately.)

So…to echo what others have previously said, you really do need to use your ears - and have regular and focused daily practice sesdions. If there's any way around that, I've yet to discover it.

Luck!

 

[Bob_Ross]

Some manufacturers make fretless lines right where you need to place your finger.

Have you ever actually seen that, Richard? I've never seen manufacturers or small builders put fretless lines anywhere other than normal fret positions.

All my experience with lined fretless basses suggested that the lines were placed right where the frets would go, and so one had to place ones finger behind the line
...until the last two fretless instruments I acquired: I got a Rob Allen MB-2 in 2007 that came from the factory perfectly intonated if you play with your finger right on the line. And I recently dug an older (circa 1995) Warmoth lined fretless neck out of mothballs and had it built up into a lovely instrument, and without any prompting from me the luthier assembled & set it up so it intonates with your finger right on the line.

I gotta admit, I kinda prefer it this way.

 

[Turnaround]

All my experience with lined fretless basses suggested that the lines were placed right where the frets would go, and so one had to place ones finger behind the line
...until the last two fretless instruments I acquired: I got a Rob Allen MB-2 in 2007 that came from the factory perfectly intonated if you play with your finger right on the line. And I recently dug an older (circa 1995) Warmoth lined fretless neck out of mothballs and had it built up into a lovely instrument, and without any prompting from me the luthier assembled & set it up so it intonates with your finger right on the line.

I gotta admit, I kinda prefer it this way.

Interesting, because Rob Allen says "the lines replace the frets (they are in fact maple strips inlayed in the fret slots)". I have been meaning to get an MB-2 for several years, but I want mine with an ebony board and no lines. But since Rob is not taking orders any more I'll have to wait until he makes one and hope I get it before someone else snaps it up.

 

[Turnaround]

To borrow from Captain Barbarossa, it's: "…more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules."

Here's the thing…if you look at a fretted bass, notice how narrow the top of a fret is. Notice too how it has a uniform hardness? Now look at your fingertips. Notice how they're much larger than the width of the top of a fret. And how they're not uniformly firm over their entire surface area? That's where the 'slop factor' is that can lead to bad intonation until you develop consistency and more precision in your fingertip placements. That's something that only comes with experience (i.e. practice).

There's also the parallax optical illusion. You may think you're playing straight across the fingerboard. And it may even look like it from your perspective. But somebody standing in front watching you will see you're actually angling down or up from the note points when you switch strings.

Well said. And on a double bass, there is no intonation adjustment other that what you provide with your fingers in conjunction with your ears. So if you play both it's no big deal.