Double Bass correct placement of bridge?

[jstiel]

Seems like it would be a heck of a lot more obvious than that for it to move that much as the result of shipping damage.

 

[drurb]

With the Bridge centered, you can see how the strings are way off from where they were b4. This means the Neck set is Not straight. Plain and simple....

Gee, enough is enough and I find SuperT's experience somewhat heartbreaking. She spent good $$$ and received a damaged/defective product. Hey, I'm no luthier but I don't think it takes one to recognize that something is very much amiss with this bass. I trust Ken's assessment.

I gather from the post by greene that the bass is from his shop. Correct? I'm certainly not swayed by the argument that "some other guy played it and didn't notice anything." Whether the seller knew of the problem before the sale or not, if he has even a modicum of integrity, he will replace the bass, repair the bass, or take the bass back and issue a full refund. That is, unless the bass was purchased "as is" with no warranty or promise with regard to condition. I think that would be very unlikely.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Mrs. 'T' mentioned she can see some fresh wood or wood dust on the E side of the Joint. This may mean that the Neck was knocked loose in shipment. In that case, "Mrs. 'T', loosen the Strings before something bad happens". If the Neck came slightly loose, it may pop out with the normal string tension. The Neck needs to come out, the Block area and butt of neck be cleaned, the neck re-fit to the block or the fit corrected if necessary and then re-glued so it lines up straight.

I am speaking from recent personal experience. About a month ago, I got my Hungarian Bass back from its restoration. I had Arnold do everything that we could see that needed fixing. If something was loose, it was cleaned out and re-glued. We agreed that we don't know how the Bass was exactly made or fixed b4 but we did see alot of white glue as it seems to have been put together with a Hungarian wood glue. Short of taking everything apart we just did what seemed to be needed as it was a big Job anyway. At the third rehearsal (once a week) with one of the Orchestras I play in, I tuned up the Bass and started playing. A short while later I was slightly flat. I tuned again to match the orchestra. A few minutes later, I was again flat. I looked at the neck butt here (perfect before); Invalid Link Removed and saw the neck lifted about 1mm from the back button (not shown in this pic). One of the maple capping strips on the low B side (5-string) looked slightly loose. Here is a pic just after the initial restoration/conversion (to 5-strings looked when it was finished. Note how even the Bridge/neck/strings line up:Invalid Link Removed The top of this Bass is highly arched and very strong. It also has a great deal of tension from the neck angle and bridge height not to mention Orchestral Strings. As soon as I noticed this I started to sweat and loose my place in the music as I kept looking at the loose Neck. Just after I noticed the problem, we took our break. I called the Conductor over, showed him my problem and said "I have to leave before the neck flies out and Kills one of the Viola players". I loosened the strings, packed up and drove home. This Neck/Block joint was not touched during the restoration because it looked perfectly intact. With a new Bass Bar, everyting tightened up and a Conversion to a 5-string, this was the weakest link. 'Somethings gotta give' as the song goes..lol

So, when you see your Bass may have a problem, do not take a chance. Get it to your favorite shop asap. Mine was back at Arnolds the next morning @161-181 miles (in each direction) depending on which route I take. Nice relaxing drive and a nice place to visit...

FWIW, I DO NOT at all blame Arnold for this. This is just a case of how the Bass is reacting to it's recent Surgery. When I get it back, it will be that much better. "If it aint broke, dont fix it" !!

 

[jstiel]

It looks white because there is white powder there.

I bought a Roma Hybrid from Steve and it had a white powder at many of the joints and seams, including at the neck joint. Very fine - almost like flour. There was also a light film of it inside the plastic bag it came in. It dusted off easily enough and I assumed that it was just residual saw dust that came from the inside of the bass via the f-holes in shipping. The bass was healthy. I think this is the dust that SuperT sees.

 

[greene]

if he has even a modicum of integrity, he will replace the bass, repair the bass, or take the bass back and issue a full refund. That is, unless the bass was purchased "as is" with no warranty or promise with regard to condition. I think that would be very unlikely.[/QUOTE]

First of all, a remark like this is totally uncalled for. My family's been in the string instrument business in NYC for more then 50 years and there's good reason for it. Ideal has a great reputation - a bit quirky maybe, but a long standing solid reputation. A modicum of integrity? You are over the line with that remark - way over the line. Are you implying that I'm cheating people, or is your motive to just try and frighten anyone from buying from me ? Maybe just plant that extra doubt in their minds? If there's something wrong that's my fault, I never run away from a problem and of course if you knew what you were talking about, you wouldn't ever have had to make that statement. So I must assume you made it for a completely different reason. It sure sounds that way.

I would ask if you had any clue how many basses I've sold to people who frequent this forum this month alone? But I think you probably already know the answer. I'm now also selling my Romanian plywoods on eBay, and I know others on this forum also do the same - the difference is that I actually sell them, and have happy satisfied customers - a few have actually bought additional instruments for other children often younger who need fractional sizes. In fact there are lots of people - people who are quite happy and satisfied with the opportunity they took advantage of. So it sounds like you might want to try and diminish that. Put a cloud over that ...

You certainly don't have a clue about me, my family, the business they ran here for more then five decades if you can make a remark like that. Few if anyone here would ever question my motives or my integrity in respect to Ideal Music.

That being said .. I should just make a point here of explaining for the sake of other readers, that in my opinion, some on this forum shill for dealers - I have a world of respect for most on here, Ken Smith being one of those who has an expertise and wealth of knowledge that is rarely matched and I'm fine with criticism but to move the discussion to a place where my motives and integrity are questioned ... sorry but the red flag goes up and I smell another agenda.

About the discussion at hand, I've also shown these pics to people and I've been told many other things - one of them from a friend who actually makes a living playing bass and he said that "the neck angle stuff is ALWAYS an issue. Something is always out of alighnment with a bass and often when that is corrected, the bass suffers." That was his opinion of course, and its not meant to minimize what's been said but only to put things in perspective - again in my opinion.

And I trust that after this buyer sees her local luthier this coming week, she'll get a better idea of what's what - after all, the instrument she bought from me, SHE SAYS HERSELF - SOUNDS GREAT, and isn't that what everyone on here is always talking about ?

This particular instrument is a great sounding bass - and she's right. I heard it myself. I chose that particular bass because it sounded fantastic. It was loud with a growl ... well read her own description. I saw nothing wrong with the bass and I've seen quite a few basses in my life, so to even question my intergrity is way way out of line.

Many many people on this forum have bought basses from me and I've had NO complaints whatsoever. I bet there are some on this forum who aren't very happy about this but you know I knew I'd face this sort of thing when I began to offer these basses. Hey, I grew up in the music biz and I've seen the hardest hard ball played - I've also seen the biggest come and go. My dad used to tell me how when he first went into business, many of the big boys used to gather daily at the Palm Tree (the dairy restaurant down around 17th Street - Ken probably knows the area) and they'd discuss how long before Ideal was out of business - that was more then 40 years ago and all the big boys are gone. My dad may be dead, but Ideal for the moment out lived all of them. If integrity were ever an issue, Ideal would have long ago been history.



If I'm wrong I apologize, but anyone who questions my integrity, should expect that I'll question their motives ...

 

[Paul Warburton]

Yes, that is what I am saying.


There are 2 f-hole points, one in the inner part of the F-hole, and one on the outer part of the f-hole

If you center a non symetrical bridge feet on the outer f-hole points, your strings will be lined up exactly above the inner f-hole. This is the way it should be

I came to this conclusion on my own, but check out this pic I found by accident. It was not that off after all. The feet are centered with the outer f-hole point.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

yeah, my spelling is terrible. Is not the english, i am just a lazy bum. In spanish people cant understand me either so dont worry.
YOu got it right.

You should at least give my man Bob Ross credit for using one of his beautiful basses in your pictures. Similar to what you did for using one of Ken Smith's basses.
Only difference is that Bob made this bass. Ken didn't make that bass, but you still gave him credit. Pretty tacky of you.

 

[Brent Nussey]

Aw, I was afraid this might happen.

When I lived in NY, I bought strings and odd supplies, a bow case, etc, from Ideal Music. They were one of the last "mom and pop" type music stores. I always loved the atmosphere there. Anyway, I moved away. Then last year, when the topic of his basses came up on the old 2xbasslist, I exchanged a few emails with Steve. It seems his father the "Pop" had passed on, and left him (not in the family business, a commercial arranger and pianist, IIRC) with a warehouse full of stuff and his mom to take care of. That's how it goes. My understanding through our exchanges was that he's a good guy, just wrapping up the family business. I imagine the Ideal name, which is well loved and respected in NY, is much more important to him than anything else. I'm sure if there's really a problem, that he'll work it out with the buyer. But at the same time, this really points up the problems of internet buying of basses. I'm quite sure that there are lots of people who have really gotten lucky with deals from Steve. But if there's a problem, it's not a simple thing to fix a bass in Colorado from NY....

Steve, I didn't read DRURBs post as trying to be a dig against you, not with ulterior motives anyway. He's just not being very tactful, and maybe trying to help SuperT with his little pressure-tactic language. It sounds like SuperT knows where you're coming from, anyway.

Brent

 

[drurb]

if he has even a modicum of integrity, he will replace the bass, repair the bass, or take the bass back and issue a full refund. That is, unless the bass was purchased "as is" with no warranty or promise with regard to condition. I think that would be very unlikely.

First of all, a remark like this is totally uncalled for. My family's been in the string instrument business in NYC for more then 50 years and there's good reason for it. Ideal has a great reputation - a bit quirky maybe, but a long standing solid reputation. A modicum of integrity? You are over the line with that remark - way over the line. Are you implying that I'm cheating people, or is your motive to just try and frighten anyone from buying from me ? Maybe just plant that extra doubt in their minds? If there's something wrong that's my fault, I never run away from a problem and of course if you knew what you were talking about, you wouldn't ever have had to make that statement. So I must assume you made it for a completely different reason. It sure sounds that way.

I would ask if you had any clue how many basses I've sold to people who frequent this forum this month alone? But I think you probably already know the answer. I'm now also selling my Romanian plywoods on eBay, and I know others on this forum also do the same - the difference is that I actually sell them, and have happy satisfied customers - a few have actually bought additional instruments for other children often younger who need fractional sizes. In fact there are lots of people - people who are quite happy and satisfied with the opportunity they took advantage of. So it sounds like you might want to try and diminish that. Put a cloud over that ...

You certainly don't have a clue about me, my family, the business they ran here for more then five decades if you can make a remark like that. Few if anyone here would ever question my motives or my integrity in respect to Ideal Music.

That being said .. I should just make a point here of explaining for the sake of other readers, that in my opinion, some on this forum shill for dealers - I have a world of respect for most on here, Ken Smith being one of those who has an expertise and wealth of knowledge that is rarely matched and I'm fine with criticism but to move the discussion to a place where my motives and integrity are questioned ... sorry but the red flag goes up and I smell another agenda.

About the discussion at hand, I've also shown these pics to people and I've been told many other things - one of them from a friend who actually makes a living playing bass and he said that "the neck angle stuff is ALWAYS an issue. Something is always out of alighnment with a bass and often when that is corrected, the bass suffers." That was his opinion of course, and its not meant to minimize what's been said but only to put things in perspective - again in my opinion.

And I trust that after this buyer sees her local luthier this coming week, she'll get a better idea of what's what - after all, the instrument she bought from me, SHE SAYS HERSELF - SOUNDS GREAT, and isn't that what everyone on here is always talking about ?

This particular instrument is a great sounding bass - and she's right. I heard it myself. I chose that particular bass because it sounded fantastic. It was loud with a growl ... well read her own description. I saw nothing wrong with the bass and I've seen quite a few basses in my life, so to even question my intergrity is way way out of line.

Many many people on this forum have bought basses from me and I've had NO complaints whatsoever. I bet there are some on this forum who aren't very happy about this but you know I knew I'd face this sort of thing when I began to offer these basses. Hey, I grew up in the music biz and I've seen the hardest hard ball played - I've also seen the biggest come and go. My dad used to tell me how when he first went into business, many of the big boys used to gather daily at the Palm Tree (the dairy restaurant down around 17th Street - Ken probably knows the area) and they'd discuss how long before Ideal was out of business - that was more then 40 years ago and all the big boys are gone. My dad may be dead, but Ideal for the moment out lived all of them. If integrity were ever an issue, Ideal would have long ago been history.



If I'm wrong I apologize, but anyone who questions my integrity, should expect that I'll question their motives ...

Methinks thou doth protest too much!

YOU ARE WRONG! DEAD WRONG! I accept your apology.

I am not a dealer, I have no financial interest in a dealer, I have no ulterior motives. I'm just a double bass player who feels for a customer who did not receive that for which she paid. You sir, are the one who is way out of line. I did not say you do not have integrity. I said that if you have a modicum of integrity then you will make things right with your customer. So the jury is out. What will you do?

Despite your having sold many basses and despite your seemingly fine reputation, you persist in making excuses. Take a look at those pictures. Your response is to quote someone else who says:

"Something is always out of alighnment with a bass and often when that is corrected, the bass suffers."


I stand by my original statement. If you have a modicum of integrity, you will replace the bass, repair the bass, or issue a refund.

 

[drurb]

Steve, I didn't read DRURBs post as trying to be a dig against you, not with ulterior motives anyway. He's just not being very tactful, and maybe trying to help SuperT with his little pressure-tactic language. It sounds like SuperT knows where you're coming from, anyway.

Brent

Not being tactful? Pressure-tactic language? Well, I don't agree. I saw the pictures of Super T's bass and then I read the reply from greene. He basically said (and continues to say):


1) Some other guy played it and didn't notice anything.

2) It sounds great.

3) Something is always out of alignment.

Add to this Ken Smith's analysis (and Arnold's comments too) suggesting that it might even be a bad idea to play the bass in its current state.


In the face of this, I saw no reason to tip-toe. There was not even a hint of willingness to help. Please do tell me why you disagree with this simple statement, which was meant to apply, in general, to any dealer in such circumstances:

"Whether the seller knew of the problem before the sale or not, if he has even a modicum of integrity, he will replace the bass, repair the bass, or take the bass back and issue a full refund."

 

[greene]

Brent,

I've had one problem after selling close to 100 basses in the last 18 months. It was a saddle crack on a 30 year old carved Wilfer that I sold someone in Los Angeles for $4,000. I picked up the phone and called Lisa at LA Bassworks and in a week, everything was like new. I bet if I offered that customer all his money back today to buy that bass, he'd laugh in my face.

 

[greene]

Regarding the trashing I'm getting from DRURB

Perhaps before you burn me at the stake .. you ought not to forget what the Super T has written right here on this thread herself since it doesn't reflect your characterizing her as the victim and me the villain who has swindled this poor unfortunate consumer. Just for clarity lets look back at some of what Super T writes:


"Edit Sept. 30: I don't want to dis Ideal at all! I thought I had made a mistake in placing the bridge and was looking for advice. I emailed Steve Saturday and Thursday and talked to Kate Thursday. Their luthier said it was ok as is. "

"My bad, I never mentioned how beautiful the instrument is. And the sound WOW! We have had various school rentals including several Kays- true nothing top notch- but the sound is louder, more booming, clearer toned, has a growl I never heard before, and is really impressive to our budding bassists."


I think perhaps you ought to take a deep breath and settle down ... and let me take care of my customer since all you are is a double bass player according to you .. ok ?
I'm sure she'll let all of us know what's transpired AFTER she has someone actually look at the physical bass and NOT just the picture.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Everyone please calm down. This is getting out of hand as comments are flying faster than time!

As far as Basses often being out of square with regard to the neck joint, this is true. If the Bridge however is pushing down the G side F hole then it is too far off. Many possibilites exhist here and it could be a few small things that add up to one big one.

If the neck is loose in the block, it needs to be fixed. If the neck was set like that when made, it needs to be fixed. If something happened in shipment, it is a freight claim if you have recourse at all. If it looked and sounded ok b4 shipped and it is just off center, then this is something only experienced Bass people would notice wether they be Makers, restorers or just dealers.

One thing is for certain to my eye and that is the neck has to be re-set, loose or not. I don't know what other issues are involved with the Bass but that much I can say from what I have seen here.

As far as the refrence to a Bass I have on my website posted by Samie in Spain, the Bridge on that is not perfectly centered but neither are the FFs on the Bass. Also, the correction does not cause the Bridge to push down the G side of the F hole. It is further over on the E side. The Bass Bar on that Bass is right up against the upper opening of the F hole so it needs to be there but a wider Bridge will move it too far over the G side. This Bass also just recently had a New Neck Grafted and it was only slightly corrected. With older Basses often being out of square in many places, perfect alingment is not always possible.

 

[drurb]

Regarding the trashing I'm getting from DRURB

Perhaps before you burn me at the stake .. you ought not to forget what the Super T has written right here on this thread herself since it doesn't reflect your characterizing her as the victim and me the villain who has swindled this poor unfortunate consumer. Just for clarity lets look back at some of what Super T writes:


"Edit Sept. 30: I don't want to dis Ideal at all! I thought I had made a mistake in placing the bridge and was looking for advice. I emailed Steve Saturday and Thursday and talked to Kate Thursday. Their luthier said it was ok as is. "

"My bad, I never mentioned how beautiful the instrument is. And the sound WOW! We have had various school rentals including several Kays- true nothing top notch- but the sound is louder, more booming, clearer toned, has a growl I never heard before, and is really impressive to our budding bassists."


I think perhaps you ought to take a deep breath and settle down ... and let me take care of my customer since all you are is a double bass player according to you .. ok ?
I'm sure she'll let all of us know what's transpired AFTER she has someone actually look at the physical bass and NOT just the picture.

You really are some piece of work. I didn't trash you. I never characterized you as having swindled anybody. I simply said integrity would dictate that you help your customer. Now, if that is what you consider trashing, I suggest you ain't seen trash. I do wonder why such a suggestion would be perceived by you as being so aversive. This is the first time you even mentioned taking care of your customer. Bravo!

I didn't say that all I am is a bass player. That does not completely define or describe me anywhere near completely.

Yes, let's look at what SuperT wrote. From what she said:

1) Obviously she was not put completely at ease by your luthier telling her everything is ok.

2) The bass is beautiful-- no argument and irrelevant.

3) The bass sounds great-- no argument and irrelevant.

4) Something is amiss with regard to alignment. That's the crux of the matter.

 

[drurb]

Brent,

...I picked up the phone and called Lisa at LA Bassworks and in a week, everything was like new. I bet if I offered that customer all his money back today to buy that bass, he'd laugh in my face.

Ah, you fixed it for the customer! Indeed! I suggested you fix it, replace it, or provide a refund. As as for SuperT?

 

[drurb]

Everyone please calm down. This is getting out of hand as comments are flying faster than time!

As far as Basses often being out of square with regard to the neck joint, this is true. If the Bridge however is pushing down the G side F hole then it is too far off. Many possibilites exhist here and it could be a few small things that add up to one big one.

If the neck is loose in the block, it needs to be fixed. If the neck was set like that when made, it needs to be fixed. If something happened in shipment, it is a freight claim if you have recourse at all. If it looked and sounded ok b4 shipped and it is just off center, then this is something only experienced Bass people would notice wether they be Makers, restorers or just dealers.

One thing is for certain to my eye and that is the neck has to be re-set, loose or not. I don't know what other issues are involved with the Bass but that much I can say from what I have seen here.

...

So here's the deal. It seems that one way or another the bass needs work. The dealer persisted in trying to explain why everything is ok and why it is likely that nothing is wrong. I stated that a sense of integrity would dictate that he take care of this for the customer. For that, he attacks me.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Durub, chill out for a moment. The Pics from Mrs.T just came on Friday. It's Sunday now. How fast do you expect someone to act. If this is a REAL Emergency, then Log Out and Dial 911..

Other wise let Steve take care of his customer in due time. It is not our business to tell him how to run his. From what I see and have heard, he is doing a great job. I happen to have been to his place years back when he Dad was there running it. They have always been a well respected business by all.

Some of us are just trying to help offering advise and diagnosis from experience and photos shown. No need here to point fingers and Drag someone thru the mud. There are no 'Bass sale Cops' here. Just a bunch of people that love the Bass. Some more than others..

BTW Steve, I don't know what Resturant on 17th street you are referring to. What ave was it on and what was the name? 40 Years ago I was only 14 and living in Florida. I moved back to New York that summer before I turned 15.

 

[greene]

Thanks Ken ... we are handling it and will continue to do so and in case anyone needs to know - we never hang a customer out to dry plus I'M NO DEALER ..... Jeeesh. I was just telling my wife this morning how its scary to me to suddenly find myself doing things I saw my dad doing decades ago ...

It was this dairy restaurant and it was either right near where Metropolitan used to be or on Broadway around 17th maybe 18th. I can't really remember exactly. There were a bunch of wholesalers down in that area and many would show up at this place for breakfast - my dad used to take me there as a little boy and I remember hating the food. It was this old dusty environment. No bacon and eggs just mounds of cottage cheese Ughh. Anyway, they'd all hang out there and talk shop. Do you remember when Kay had a place down there on Broadway ? Might have been Kay's rep (wholesaler) in NY or was that before your time .. no you must remember that. They had a window right on Broadway .. but when you looked in, the place was a complete wreck. Of course it wasn't for the public anyway but for the "trade" . . .
Ahhh the old days.

 

[drurb]

Durub, chill out for a moment. The Pics from Mrs.T just came on Friday. It's Sunday now. How fast do you expect someone to act. If this is a REAL Emergency, then Log Out and Dial 911..

Other wise let Steve take care of his customer in due time. It is not our business to tell him how to run his. From what I see and have heard, he is doing a great job. I happen to have been to his place years back when he Dad was there running it. They have always been a well respected business by all.

Some of us are just trying to help offering advise and diagnosis from experience and photos shown. No need here to point fingers and Drag someone thru the mud. There are no 'Bass sale Cops' here. Just a bunch of people that love the Bass. Some more than others..

BTW Steve, I don't know what Resturant on 17th street you are referring to. What ave was it on and what was the name? 40 Years ago I was only 14 and living in Florida. I moved back to New York that summer before I turned 15.

You ask how fast I expect him to act. My answer is that I did not expect him to solve the problem immediately. What I reacted to was his responses in which he pointed out that some customer from France did not find a problem and his use of the opinion of a third party who claimed that something is always out of alignment. In the face of your analysis and Arnold's comment, he did not respond by saying that there appears to be a problem and if, indeed, there is, he will take care of it in a manner consistent with the high level of customer service that folks have come to expect from his company. Had he said anything like that, I would have no comment other than to applaud him. He said anything but that.

Point fingers? Drag someone throught the mud? Gee, read carefully, man. Let me try this again. Given the situation I suggested that he help his customer. Actually, I am disappointed in your response, Ken. You made the very strong assertion more than once that this bass needs work. You read greene's reply regarding his French customer and his explanation that there's always something out of alignment. Yet, your primary concern seems to be in preventing any feathers from being ruffled.

What about SuperT? What about someone who is obviously concerned about an expense that she describes as being greater than her cars?

So, please take your own advice. Chill out, relax, and read the posts again without reading excess meaning into what I have written.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

My Advise was constructive. Greens' (Steve's) comments were to show it wasn't seen b4 he shipped it. Nothing more, nothing less. If you deleted all your posts here in this thread, we would still be in the same place on Sunday evening but in a more peacefull manner. It will get done, he see's what the problem is now. No need to rub faces in it.. I know you mean well but everything will work its way out to a happy ending, i'm sure..

 

[drurb]

My Advise was constructive. Greens' (Steve's) comments were to show it wasn't seen b4 he shipped it. Nothing more, nothing less. If you deleted all your posts here in this thread, we would still be in the same place on Sunday evening but in a more peacefull manner. It will get done, he see's what the problem is now. No need to rub faces in it.. I know you mean well but everything will work its way out to a happy ending, i'm sure..

All would be even more peaceful if Steve had never responded in the manner he did. With regard to "nothing more, nothing less," well it just isn't so. Even after my comment, Steve went on to say that some third party was of the opinion that something is always out of alignment. That certainly did not demonstrate concern. I only responded to what was written here.

Finally, the venom and lack of peacefulness did not issue from me. I made a simple statement:

"Whether the seller knew of the problem before the sale or not, if he has even a modicum of integrity, he will replace the bass, repair the bass, or take the bass back and issue a full refund."

This is a simple logical "if-then." I still believe it to be true. It does not say that Steve does not have a modicum of integrity. It says if he has A, then he will do B.

The thing is that it seems both you and Steve agree. The venom was spewed when Steve hurled those accusations at me.

Here's to being peaceful!