Double Bass correct placement of bridge?

[Samie]

This says that modern bridges are cut so that it would be correct to center the bridge feet on the outer f-hole nicks so that the strings lie over the inner f-hole nicks. I'm not a luthier but I think this is completely wrong.

I hope one of the luthiers here will chime in.

I am not sure what you mean. When setting up my first bridge I assumed that the strings would end up centered on the bridge. This is not always the case.

The bridge feet should be placed in relation to the bassbar and the soundpost. The top of the bridge then follows somewhat the shape of the neck, with the strings set apart to suit your taste. The strings might not seem centered with regard to the bridge, but that were thet have to be set unless you fix your neck.

That is the conclusion I get. I have not understood the original post completely, it is posible that I am talking about something completely different.

 

[drurb]

I am not sure what you mean. When setting up my first bridge I assumed that the strings would end up centered on the bridge. This is not always the case.

The bridge feet should be placed in relation to the bassbar and the soundpost. The top of the bridge then follows somewhat the shape of the neck, with the strings set apart to suit your taste. The strings might not seem centered with regard to the bridge, but that were thet have to be set unless you fix your neck.

That is the conclusion I get. I have not understood the original post completely, it is posible that I am talking about something completely different.

You agreed to Doug Ring's paraphrasing your point as:

If you centre the bridge feet on the line between the f-hole points, the strings won't be directly above this line because the bridge is not symmetrical?


Well, it seemed this was incorrect. I just drove home and checked my own bass. As I suspected, three things are true:

1) The bridge feet are dead centered on the inner f-hole nicks.

2) The bridge is properly top-bottom asymmetrical.

3) The point of contact of the strings across the bridge is dead on line with the inner f-hole nicks.

 

[Super T]

Ok so to be more specific, I measured a 9 mm shift of the bridge toward the right (facing the bass) in order to line up the strings evenly on the fingerboard. The bass bar feels like it is under the left bridge foot, but starting at the edge of the foot, not centered under it. On the right side the bridge foot is just above (closer to the scroll) the sound post with the sound post edge pretty much lined up with the bottom of the foot.

The school recommended the luthier they use so I took it over there. He called after taking measurements and said it was a very nice bass and needed no work.

But his final words were , I am really a guitar person. So what to do?

I can drive a few hours to Ted Moniak of Paonia Strings(I think that's the new name- used to be Laughing Bear) if he is willing to look at it. Otherwise it's five hours to Salt Lake or Denver where I might find someone.

Since I have to plan ahead for that trip- is it likely the bass can be used without damaging it for a few months as is? Or is it more likely that this problem needs immediate attention.

Also it doesn't appear to show much damage on the finish, but we just recieved it a few days ago. Is it likely this is hidden damage to the neck that happened in transit? If so I need to claim that immediately.

Thanks for any feedback and guidance.

 

[jstiel]

I measured a 9 mm shift of the bridge toward the right (facing the bass) in order to line up the strings evenly on the fingerboard.

Would you tell us how this measurement was made?

 

[Super T]

Ok I measured the distance from the f hole notch to the outer edge of the foot of the bridge on each side. The bridge is not centered between the f holes, but is 9 mm closer to the right side (G) than the left side (E). In this position the strings are in line with the fingerboard. If the bridge is exactly centered right to left, the E string is at the edge or maybe off at the bottom of the fingerboard.

Sorry I am trying to describe something which I am not even sure is a problem since the guitar guy /luthier said it was ok in his opinion. But the only other bass I had to compare to the bridge was centered exactly right to left.

 

[Brent Nussey]

Hi Super T. If your E-string side foot is sitting on the bass bar properly, and the bridge is 9 mm closer to the G side than the E side, your bridge is probably too big for your bass. That is, the legs are too wide. Probably you need a bridge with a leg width of 9mm less than you have now (if I understand your description correctly). If this is your problem, I think you can leave it as is until you can afford a new bridge, you just may not get as good a sound as you would if you had a proper bridge. But I'll defer to any real luthier opinions.

Since some people asked what can be done about neck alignment problems without resetting, my understanding of these issues is:

The bridge should line up with the inner notches of the f-holes. The maker carves the bass bar (and top) such that there's a best spot north-south to put the bridge, and the inner notches mark that spot.

The bridge should be centered in an east-west direction on the top as well (if the top was carefully made this should be centered between the f-holes too). More specifically, the foot of the E-string side should rest exactly centered on the center of the bass bar. Then a bridge should be chosen so that the feet are the right width for the bridge to be centered. The string slots should be basically centered over the top of the bridge.

If this isn't the case, then your neck is out of alignment. If it's serious, then a neck reset is called for. If it's slight, then your luthier can make one leg of the bridge slightly longer than the other, thus sort of "tilting" the bridge so that everything lines up and works at the best efficiency. Needless to say, this has to be worked out before the feet of the bridge are cut. Another option is to slightly "fake" the board, shaping it so that the curve of the board is in a slightly different direction than the neck itself (that is, reshaping the board so that it follows the direction of the strings, even if they're slightly off-center).

Brent

 

[Samie]

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I got this picture form kensmiths' page. If you look at the placemente of the feet, the bridge is not centered with relation to the F-holes.

I have noticed this in a lot of basses, is this an optical illusion or are the f-holes not always simetrical?

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

The first and most important thing is to start with the correct width bridge as far as the feet goes. The Style of bridge is next. Make sure that you don't cut too close to the heart from the top or you may need a bridge with a shallower inner arch. Finally comes the placement. On many older Basses the F-nicks are not even as the FF holes them selves may be off-set from one another. On this Bass, the FFs and the nicks are off set about 1/8th inch. I discovered this when trying to tune the Bass and realized that the E foot of the Bridge was lower when centered with the F nicks; [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

The FFs on this Bass are offset about 3/16 inches as well as the Nicks. The Bridge is also a tad above them but not equally due to the F cuts; Invalid Link Removed

On the Bass, the string length is so long, we 'cheated' the bridge slightly closer to make it play easier; Invalid Link Removed

With longer string lenght Basses, it is not uncommon to have the feet at the top of the nick rather than being centered. The Bass bar graduation is not peaked that abruptly so this poses no problem what so ever.

Modern made Basses are usually better centered at the FFs than the older hand made Relics. If the String lenght is too long, cheating it forward as much as 1/2" should be no problem to make it playable.

 

[arnoldschnitzer]

Let me throw some gasoline on this discussion. Firstly, an off-center bridge does not necessarily indicate a neck that is out of alignment. In can also be the result of top sinkage on one side or the other. In addition, many basses (especially handmade) are carved a bit unevenly, and the top is a little asymmetrical in its arching. Top unevenness can be caused by a sprung bass bar as well. Secondly, f-holes are not always perfectly aligned to the center line of an instrument. The important thing is that the string path follows the instrument's center as closely as possible, and that the bridge be perfectly positioned to the center. Super T's guitar luthier admits to knowing nothing about bowed instruments; his opinion here is worthless. I would never let a bass leave my shop with the bridge 9mm off center. The sound and response will suffer, and the health of the bass' top is in jeopardy.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

You should not feel the soundpost thru the top in a new bass nor have it fit so tight in the summer that it can be shipped without it falling and moving. The post may very well be in the wrong position anyway. The Bass bar on the otherhand may not be in the best position for that Bass either. Ideal is a good place to shop but they are mainly selling what they buy and not what they make. That is a huge difference.

Alignment of all componants inside and out of a bass is most important. Only a Bass repair person/Bass luthier can judge the Bass at hand. Many new Basses are made poorly to start with and corrections may be costly. Some of the necks are set too shallow for a propper bridge height as this is often done to save cargo space and fit more Basses in a shipping container from overseas. The Neck out in the propper position with shave 1-2 basses from the container. Cheaper for the importer, more expensive for the buyer to fix down the road.

When having work done to a bass no matter what it's initial cost, get the best person you can find. Usually the shop that works on the 50-100k Basses from the closest major Symphony Orchestra would be your best bet. I would rather have a Surgeon fit my Bandaid than the Local Butcher at half the fee!!

 

[Super T]

Thank you all for being specific in your answers so I can pursue a solution. Getting access to a qualified luthier is a challenge from where I live- which is the only reason we chose to order online in the first place. I appreciate you all taking the time to help me understand the problem and what it's significance is. I can see a qualified luthier is the only way to go.

Edit Sept. 30: I don't want to dis anyone at all! I thought I had made a mistake in placing the bridge and was looking for advice. I emailed Steve Saturday and Thursday and talked to Kate Thursday. Their luthier said it was ok as is.

I got panicky because this intrument costs more than our cars! Because of this forum we didn't buy a cheapo chinese so I am forever grateful.

My bad, I never mentioned how the sound is louder, more booming, clearer toned, has a growl I never heard before.

So, what automatic transmission did for cars, what Windows did for computers, and what inexpensive basses did for us- was put people who had no expertise in the position of getting to experience the magic.

Blessings!

 

[jstiel]

Super T, Can you post pictures for us?

 

[Super T]

I hope this is the right way to do this. Camera angle made it very hard for me to get a picture so I added a piece of paper for scale.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

I hope this is the right way to do this. Camera angle made it very hard for me to get a picture so I added a piece of paper for scale.

From the looks of your pics, I can see that the problem is the neck set angle from side to side. It is slight but the root of the neck being about 17-18" to the Nut and the nut being about 41-42" to the bridge, a 1/16" off in the angle can shift the neck quite a bit by the time it reaches the bridge. I think Arnold (AES) uses a Lazer to align his neck sets. Even an old fashioned straight edge would be better than the naked eye. To fix your Bass the right way, the Neck must come out and be re-set. With a Carved top, you are looking for all kinds or trouble down the road as the Bass settles in over the next year or or two.

 

[greene]

I had a fairly well known French jazz player up at the shop recently who played that very bass while he was waiting for something, and it sounded better then good - but more importantly there were no visible problems - certainly no neck problems. He considered buying the bass but didn't want to deal with taking two basses back to France.

If the neck was off as you describe it from looking at a picture, wouldn't it have been obvious then?

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

I had a fairly well known French jazz player up at the shop recently who played that very bass while he was waiting for something, and it sounded better then good - but more importantly there were no visible problems - certainly no neck problems. He considered buying the bass but didn't want to deal with taking two basses back to France.

If the neck was off as you describe it from looking at a picture, wouldn't it have been obvious then?

I don't know what it looked like to him but it is clear that the E foot of the Bridge lines up inside the upper F hole opening closer to the center of the Top and the G foot of the Bridge lines up over the upper F hole opening away from the center in proportion. In time, this causes sinking of the top.

Steve (Greene!), I have worked on a few Basses myself as you may know and have been playing them for over 40 years. What I have learned about them makes me a pretty tough customer. I am not trying to be critical of your business ethics here. In fact I actually support your Basses dealings and prices when they are discussed here on TB. The fact remains that wether or not the French guy liked the Bass, this is not something he would have noticed while playing it unless he stopped to take measurments. Mrs.'T' is asking us why the Bridge does not center between the FFs when the Strings DO over the Fingerboard. The reason why is the Neck Alignment according to the Pics. In my experience, when a Bridge foot hangs into the upper F hole area, the top can sink over time as the foot of the Bridge pushes down on it. Other possibilities that i see is that either the Bridge feet are too wide for the Bass's FF hole spacing or the Bass Bar is set too far in, too far out or too straight an angle top to bottom. Many Basses coming over from Germany, Czech, Romaina, China or where ever have Neck set problems as well as other flaws not easily reckognized by even the best of players. This is not something Factories are picky about.

For example, here is a Bass close to 100 years old that was made and set-up incorrectly. The Bass bar was integral (part of the top) and the Bridge is too wide. The Top was being pushed down at the FFs. Some of the Sinkage was repairable. The rest which was slight was settlement.
b4 fixing; Invalid Link Removed

after fixing; Invalid Link Removed

The Bass sounded good b4 it was fixed as well. It sounds Great after the restoration. Many other things were done besides the corrections mentioned but these problems would eventually hurt the Bass even more over time.

 

[Super T]

Tried to avoid camera angle tricks with a straight on shot after centering the brdige. The sound is still wonderful, though hard to keep in tune- which may be normal with a new bass. My thought is that it may have been jarred in shipping- I never thought it was sent out imperfect. I see nothing that my untrained eye recognizes as damage, but that is meaningless really.

 

[jstiel]

My thought is that it may have been jarred in shipping- I never thought it was sent out imperfect. I see nothing that my untrained eye recognizes as damage, but that is meaningless really.

To get knocked out of alignment that far in shipping I would think it would have to break. Have you looked closely where the neck is joined to the body? There would at least be cracks in the laquer at the joint where the neck would have shifted.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Tried to avoid camera angle tricks with a straight on shot after centering the brdige. The sound is still wonderful, though hard to keep in tune- which may be normal with a new bass. My thought is that it may have been jarred in shipping- I never thought it was sent out imperfect. I see nothing that my untrained eye recognizes as damage, but that is meaningless really.

With the Bridge centered, you can see how the strings are way off from where they were b4. This means the Neck set is Not straight. Plain and simple....

 

[Super T]

Hard to reduce the glare but...

On the G side there is no crack in the finish. On the E side above and below the black inset there are little cracks in the finish. As I ran my hand along that line feeling for inconsistency, a chip popped out from the body right where the neck meets the body in the front. It looks white because there is white powder there. This may indicate damage? or just a weakness in the finish job?