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Double Bass correct placement of bridge?

#61
Gosh, I'm almost afraid to write. While I was down with the flu a few sparks have flown.

Thanks for everyone's help. I have every confidence that this is all gonna be alright. I wish I had just put the bridge on incorrectly as I initially thought, but I am not in the least worried about it all working out for good.

First, I know buying on the internet is not the optimal way, but I live in the middle of nowhere so it seemed my best option. It is hard on the seller too, as it truly is hard to evaluate a possible problem in Colorado from New York. Second, I started with an inadequate budget, and after what I read here I stretched it as far as I could to buy the best bass for my kids that I could, and I'm glad I did. Third, I thought I had a luthier (the recommended luthier of the school district) who could do the fine tuning I knew would be needed, but unfortunately when I took the bass to him, he turned out to be a guitar guy, so he was unable to give a good evaluation.

So, I figured next best to buying in person was to buy from a reputable dealer and I have total confidence that I found one in Steve and Kate at Ideal. I posted pictures here for advice, and received good direction. I have a couple of appointments this week for a hands on evaluation of the bass and Steve is working with me and I have no doubt it will all be resolved.
 
#63
My daughter's orchestra teacher who evaluates and
purchases school instruments, and is in charge of
keeping them in repair, and has also been a bass
player (symphony , etc) for probably 30 years said if she received this bass at school she would send it back for these
reasons:

1)She said the neck is out of alignment such that it pushes the g foot of the bridge into a risky position for
the top.

2)She said she felt some sinkage above the
soundpost from the G foot already.

3) In her opinion the problems were
too extensive to send out for repair on a new
bass.

She also referred me to two bass luthiers.

I preferred not to repair, Steve would rather refund than replace, so we are all good, as far as I know.

So I guess it's back to the drawing board for me. Thanks all.
 
#64
Super T said:
Steve would rather refund than replace
Click to expand...
I think this may be for the better in your situation. You say that you are some distance from a qualified luthier. However, you would have had to take the bass to a luthier anyway since Steve's basses don't come with a full set up and the fingerboards on his basses don't come dressed, or "scooped". This is very important and must be done.

There are a number of people on this board that have ordered basses to be shipped that are quite satisfied with their purchases. For example, for the price of that Roma, you could order this [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] or this [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] from Upton. There are a number of people here that have gotten these and are pleased with them. While it would be a laminated instrument rather than carved, your all-in cost would be less since the purchase price includes a full setup.

Also, Shen makes some very good budget-priced basses that you could order fully set up from a number of dealers.
 
#65
My suggestion for Super T is if she still wants and more importantly can find a decent carved bass within her budget, to buy a bass that's been out in her climate rather then buying one here in the East and having it shipped out there. Try Robertsons in Albuquerque or Southwest Strings in Tuscon.

Of course buying a laminated (plywood) bass is another option and should enable you to avoid so much of what carved instruments often do, however you already know the sound compromise there. But even with a plywood, do yourself a favor and buy from one of the dealers or luthiers in that region. It will make things much easier for you.

The story on this particular bass and what's happened here is not quite over ... I'll be very curious to hear what an actual luthier says once he takes a look which will be in a few days time. The bass has already been sold to a buyer in San Francisco and is headed to the Acoustic Bass Shop out there, and that will be the very first time since it left my shop in NYC that a luthier has even looked at this bass.

To Be Continued . . .
 
#66
Vindication is usually very sweet for me but in this particular case I just feel bad for two people. Super T who just wanted a great instrument for her kid and her kid who almost had one.

I'll cut to the chase :


The Roma that Super T had for a few days before I refunded all her money (because I really DO have a "modicum of integrity") was sold to a dealer in San Francisco and then resold to a customer for almost twice what Super T originally paid. The bass was sent, at the dealer's request to the Acoustic Bass Shop in SF where the luthier reported that he

a) moved the soundpost slightly and
b) did some work on the bridge.
There was no neck problem, and no alligmment problem etc.

I am waiting for pics of the bass which I should have in a few days time and I will post them.

Moral of story from my vantage point is:

Taking someone's advice is good but taking your bass to a reputable luthier is better and I don't think anyone would disagree.
Teachers often don't know very much but pretend to.
Question people's motives
 
#67
greene said:
Vindication is usually very sweet for me but in this particular case I just feel bad for two people. Super T who just wanted a great instrument for her kid and her kid who almost had one.

I'll cut to the chase :


The Roma that Super T had for a few days before I refunded all her money (because I really DO have a "modicum of integrity") was sold to a dealer in San Francisco and then resold to a customer for almost twice what Super T originally paid. The bass was sent, at the dealer's request to the Acoustic Bass Shop in SF where the luthier reported that he

a) moved the soundpost slightly and
b) did some work on the bridge.
There was no neck problem, and no alligmment problem etc.

I am waiting for pics of the bass which I should have in a few days time and I will post them.
Click to expand...

From the pictures SuperT posted, there was an asymmetry of 9mm. SOMETHING was amiss.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2406756&postcount=33

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2407129&postcount=37

Both Ken Smith and Arnold went on record with that judgment. As Arnold said, "I would never let a bass leave my shop with the bridge 9mm off center. The sound and response will suffer, and the health of the bass' top is in jeopardy."

Was it the bridge itself? It would be most interesting to understand what accounted for the gross asymmetry evident in SuperT's photos. Perhaps you would be kind enought to tell us. I hope the pictures you end up posting will confirm proper symmetry.

There's no question that you ended up doing the right thing (fix it, replace it, or refund the $$$).



greene said:
Moral of story from my vantage point is:

Taking someone's advice is good but taking your bass to a reputable luthier is better and I don't think anyone would disagree.
Teachers often don't know very much but pretend to.
Question people's motives
Click to expand...


No argument on the first and second aspects of the moral. Question people's motives? Whose? I think SuperT's motives were quite pure. Mine were as well in that I was only trying to ensure that she, who was, by her own description, caught in an uncomfortable position, was helped.
 
#68
No argument on the first and second aspects of the moral. Question people's motives? Whose? I think SuperT's motives were quite pure. Mine were as well in that I was only trying to ensure that she, who was, by her own description, caught in an uncomfortable position, was helped.[/QUOTE]


HOW WAS SHE HELPED??? She lost a good bass at a great price
 
#69
DRURB said:
No argument on the first and second aspects of the moral. Question people's motives? Whose? I think SuperT's motives were quite pure. Mine were as well in that I was only trying to ensure that she, who was, by her own description, caught in an uncomfortable position, was helped.
Click to expand...


greene said:
HOW WAS SHE HELPED??? She lost a good bass at a great price
Click to expand...

First of all you didn't answer the question. Whose motives was it correct for you to question? Whose motives turned out to be improper? Second, I hope it is not the case that you are asserting to this community that there was no problem with SuperT's bass. There clearly was SOME problem. Third, whether SuperT believes she was helped is really a matter for her to address.
 
#70
DRURB said:
Second, I hope it is not the case that you are asserting to this community that there was no problem with SuperT's bass. There clearly was SOME problem.
Click to expand...

Really? What problem? When the bass was finally taken to an actual luthier, whom you can contact independantly for corroboration, ALL that needed to be done was some soundpost and bridgework. Not speculation, ACTUAL.

You keep trying to justify acting like a jerk, it ain't working.
 
#71
Ed Fuqua said:
Really? What problem? When the bass was finally taken to an actual luthier, whom you can contact independantly for corroboration, ALL that needed to be done was some soundpost and bridgework. Not speculation, ACTUAL.

You keep trying to justify acting like a jerk, it ain't working.
Click to expand...

Well, Ed, no need to get nasty and insulting. Ed, look at the pictures posted by SuperT. There is clearly some asymmetry and it is not minor. In fact, it was enough to lead Ken Smith to say, "With the Bridge centered, you can see how the strings are way off from where they were b4. This means the Neck set is Not straight. Plain and simple...."

Now, Ken may have been wrong with regard to what actually was the problem. That there was a problem is undeniable. I politely asked Steve to tell us what accounted for the asymmetry. Perhaps the luthier who ultimately looked at the bass did not consider the asymmetry to be serious. Nonetheless, it was there.
 
#72
Insulting? Maybe, but I wasn't the first one in that pool. But nasty? Where you getting that?

Anyway, your assessment "that there was a problem was undeniable" seems to be faulty, because someone who looked at the bass (and NOT at pictures of the bass) seems to have found NO PROBLEM. Go ahead, e-mail'em and tell them that you think that Steve is lying because you saw some pictures at a website that clearly show a problem that they missed, either through incompetence or collusion.

"Nonetheless, was there..." You keep insisting that things are JUST SO in the face of evidence to the contrary. Gee, maybe what is a work here is THAT YOU CAN"T TELL FROM A PICTURE ON A COMPUTER SCREEN what might be a problem and what is just bad angles in photography. Or maybe what's at work is your inability to say "Oh maybe I was wrong and over reacted".

On one hand I got you, who has NEVER seen this bass insisting that there is a problem; on the other we have the good folks at Acoustic Bass shop in San Francisco, who actually had the bass in question in their hands, saying that there was no problem.

Want to splain that one again?
 
#73
Ed Fuqua said:
Insulting? Maybe, but I wasn't the first one in that pool. But nasty? Where you getting that?
Click to expand...

Well, saying that I am acting like a jerk is nasty.

Ed Fuqua said:
Anyway, your assessment "that there was a problem was undeniable" seems to be faulty, because someone who looked at the bass (and NOT at pictures of the bass) seems to have found NO PROBLEM. Go ahead, e-mail'em and tell them that you think that Steve is lying because you saw some pictures at a website that clearly show a problem that they missed, either through incompetence or collusion.
Click to expand...

You are going way overboard and are ascribing meaning to my post that was simply not there. I am not suggesting that the luthier is incompetent.

Ed Fuqua said:
"Nonetheless, was there..." You keep insisting that things are JUST SO in the face of evidence to the contrary. Gee, maybe what is a work here is THAT YOU CAN"T TELL FROM A PICTURE ON A COMPUTER SCREEN what might be a problem and what is just bad angles in photography. Or maybe what's at work is your inability to say "Oh maybe I was wrong and over reacted".
Click to expand...

Now this is most interesting. I would agree were it not for the fact that SuperT showed pictures with a template so that the asymmetry was quite evident. Again, perhaps it is the case that the luthier considered the 9mm asymmetry not to be an issue. I simply asked what accounted for it. You seem to be saying it never existed. Please!

Ed Fuqua said:
On one hand I got you, who has NEVER seen this bass insisting that there is a problem; on the other we have the good folks at Acoustic Bass shop in San Francisco, who actually had the bass in question in their hands, saying that there was no problem.

Want to splain that one again?
Click to expand...

I think I already did. I would be interested to know what accounted for the asymmetry whether or not one considers it to be a bona fide problem.
 
#74
DRURB said:
Well, saying that I am acting like a jerk is nasty.
You are going way overboard and are ascribing meaning to my post that was simply not there. I am not suggesting that the luthier is incompetent.
Now this is most interesting. I would agree were it not for the fact that SuperT showed pictures with a template so that the asymmetry was quite evident. Again, perhaps it is the case that the luthier considered the 9mm asymmetry not to be an issue. I simply asked what accounted for it. You seem to be saying it never existed. Please!
I think I already did. I would be interested to know what accounted for the asymmetry whether or not one considers it to be a bona fide problem.
Click to expand...

Semantics, I guess. Jerk I don't see as nasty. Mother****er, maybe. But that can mean good, too. As in "Boy wasn't Brownie's solo a mother****er!"

A Post It note does not a template make. Pictures on the web are just pictures. I've e-mailed the guys at Acoustic Bass Shop, if they don't think that this is just too stupid for words then we'll get past all of this speculation.
 
#75
Ed Fuqua said:
Semantics, I guess. Jerk I don't see as nasty. Mother****er, maybe. But that can mean good, too. As in "Boy wasn't Brownie's solo a mother****er!"

A Post It note does not a template make. Pictures on the web are just pictures. I've e-mailed the guys at Acoustic Bass Shop, if they don't think that this is just too stupid for words then we'll get past all of this speculation.
Click to expand...

Thank you. All I wanted to know was what accounted for the asymmetry. The Post-It note was simply serving as a constant-distance reference. It matters not whether it was a piece of paper, plastic, or a ruler. Furthermore, when the bridge was placed symmetrically, the strings were to one side of the FB.
Again, thanks for looking into this.
 
#76
Well Steve I'm glad it worked out so well for you. It worked out great for me too.

Let me thank talkbass all for the ways that I was helped.

1)“Super T who just wanted a great instrument for her kid and her kid who almost had one.”-greene
Got another one! From a luthier, Ted Moniak, Paonia Strings. Professionally set up, guaranteed, and for only a couple bucks more. We wouldn’t have known about him if all this confusion hadn’t happened; no regrets. Because of help I received here, I realized how valuable the relationship with a luthier really is.

2)DRURB, jstiel, Ken , Arnold, the orchestra teacher, even the “guitar guy” luthier, and lots of others both publicly and privately, all contributed their information and advice, and none of them had one single thing to gain. There were in many cases passionate responses brought on by the love of music, the love of a fine instrument , and the fellowship of the bass playing community and it helped me immensely. I saw no improper motives.

3)I did not ask Steve for anything, I just told him what I was concerned about- he offered repair and then refund while I was still in the information gathering stage. As Steve knows I had two calls in to bass luthiers that the orchestra teacher recommended for appointments when he suggested we just call it quits and he refund my money. That was a very gracious move, and I am grateful that he helped me this way.

4) I didn't fake any pictures or anything stupid like that. Originally I just thought I had done something wrong in placing the bridge. Then, I actually thought there was something seriously wrong-based on the advice here on talkbass and from my daughter's orchestra teacher(who I certainly wouldn't call a "pretender"). But anyway, all the feedback helped me by making me a little wiser in the ways of the upright bass, and that will benefit my children. I never had the intent to malign anyone, just to get accurate information and act appropriately on it.

“So, what automatic transmission did for cars, what Windows did for computers, and what inexpensive basses did for us- was put people who had no expertise in the position of getting to experience the magic.”

Michele
 
#78
Super T said:
Let me thank talkbass all for the ways that I was helped.
Michele
Click to expand...
If you'r in Colorado, the only true Double bass luthier is Bob Ross. We did at one time have a partnership, but not at the present time, so i'm not tootin' my own horn. The cat is brilliant....www.rossdoublebass.com
If you have somebody else work on your bass, you're just scratching the surface.
 
#80
Thank goodness I tuned into this thread late enough to miss all the intrigue . . . Anyway, I thought that it was worth adding a comment that as a DB owner of a little more than a year and a half, the technical information in this thread about bridge alignment is quite good.

The pictures from Samie and Ken are particularly helpful along with the comments from our fine "usual suspects" luthiers.

My situation was that, over the course of a couple of string changes and, most likely, incorrectly setting the bridge after bumping it going through a doorway, my bridge was not only too far up (towards the neck) but the feet were actually tilted toward the neck and not perfectly flush with the top. Having to tune my perpetually stretchy Compass 180s up to pitch almost daily might have exacerbated the tilting as well. (I otherwise love the 180s)

Over the course of two or so months of having to spend more time on slab and less on DB (tune selections at church that virtually dictated slab for a player of my limited chops) then coming back to DB made the symptoms of my bridge issues much more apparent.

My string length, per the bass maker Christopher/Concord, was supposed to be 41.25” but had crept to about 40.25”. This raised the playing action and made the bass sound somewhat less “open” and lacking in the higher overtones. I measured and re-measured then adjusted per the information in this thread. The string length is back to 41.25” on the money. The bridge feet are flat on the table, and the bridge is no longer tilted. And best of all, my tone and playing action are much improved.

Ironically, it took several weeks of playing slab then coming back to the DB for me to notice the poor bridge placement that I had grown used to. I guess I’ll go hug my music director picking a bunch of homogenized, over-arranged, completely keyboard-driven tunes that forced me back to the slab.

As usual, I fail to see how bass players survived for 300+ years before TalkBass came into being. TB’ers are the best! :)
 

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