Counting: Yea or Nay?

[mambo4]

I don't feel like counting is helping me keep time, but I'm spending a lot of mental energy and focus doing it, and sometimes it's getting in the way of actually playing melodies.

I've been thinking about this statement for a bit.

When I reflect on my learning, I realize that almost every new concept “got in the way” of my playing. The process of thinking about it, teaching my body to play it, and listening if I got it right is not a very musical process, it doesn’t feel good. As Anthony Wellington says , it’s not a blissful state. the only way past that is to go through : practice until it’s ingrained, instinctive , and you “feel” the count.

I think there’s two kinds of musical “feel”: ignorant feel and knowledgeable feel

Ignorant feel is the player who can groove for days but can’t tell you what 8th note upbeat that Ab is on( and maybe doesn’t even know it’s Ab.) Such players are easily derailed by circumstance, and have trouble communicating their ideas

Knowledgeable feel is the player who can groove for days, and always knows exactly where they are and what note they are playing. They aren’t thinking about it, they just know. Because they put in the mindful practice time.

And that's why I think "counting vs feeling" is a false choice.

If you currently always know exactly what beat and subdivision your on,
(or can almost instantly communicate it ) Then the count is ingrained in you
and you can stop consciously thinking about it.

If maintaining awareness of the count hampers your feel, then you need to practice it more

 

[HolmeBass]

I don’t. Sometimes I do. I don’t because often I can’t.

It’s worth trying and if you can do it, doing it. It will make you better.

 

[tshapiro]

I was an advanced drummer and grew up reading and counting. I don’t count for simple stuff. As soon as things get complicated, counting becomes your lifeline. For example, I challenge anyone to correctly play the breakdown @2:45 in 24k Magic (Bruno Mars) without counting.

 

[srosenthal13]

I've been thinking about this statement for a bit.

When I reflect on my learning, I realize that almost every new concept “got in the way” of my playing. The process of thinking about it, teaching my body to play it, and listening if I got it right is not a very musical process, it doesn’t feel good. As Anthony Wellington says , it’s not a blissful state. the only way past that is to go through : practice until it’s ingrained, instinctive , and you “feel” the count.

I think there’s two kinds of musical “feel”: ignorant feel and knowledgeable feel

Ignorant feel is the player who can groove for days but can’t tell you what 8th note upbeat that Ab is on( and maybe doesn’t even know it’s Ab.) Such players are easily derailed by circumstance, and have trouble communicating their ideas

Knowledgeable feel is the player who can groove for days, and always knows exactly where they are and what note they are playing. They aren’t thinking about it, they just know. Because they put in the mindful practice time.

And that's why I think "counting vs feeling" is a false choice.

If you currently always know exactly what beat and subdivision your on,
(or can almost instantly communicate it ) Then the count is ingrained in you
and you can stop consciously thinking about it.

If maintaining awareness of the count hampers your feel, then you need to practice it more

100%.

"Gets in the way" is really just an expression of frustration at not being able to do something -- anything -- immediately and without trouble.

When you're frustrated with a difficult task, you've got two choices: Give up, or power through the frustration and work at it until you can do it.

It takes a hell of a lot less energy and focus to give up, but what do you learn from that? Ultimately, you learn to give up when the going gets tough. And there's a lot of tough music out there.

 

[Rhythmman535]

Can you do this?

 

[Gervais Cote]

My drummer counts 1-2-3-4 while hitting his sticks together to get me started then I go by ear and/or kicks of bass drums and snaps of snares : does that count !

 

[White Beard]

In my experience, people that don't count/can't count/decided to never count don't have that great of feel. They usually can't come in on pick up notes, can't play on off beats, play extra notes to fill up space, don't know what notes they're playing, etc.

Example #1: I was playing Eddie (the bass player) in a production of Pumpboys and Dinettes, and the guy playing Jackson (lead guitar) just could not do anything except play chords on 1-2-3-4. One of the songs (Be Good or Be Gone) gets counted off with cowbell 1-2-3-4-1, guitar plays the riff on the + of 1. He just couldn't do it. We worked with him for a half-hour, he was super defensive about the whole thing and finally told me that if I'm so good then he'd like to see me do it. So I did... right the first time and every time, every show. He really disliked me.

Example #2: A guy that used to work for me couldn't intellectually grasp that the Herbie Hancock tune Chameleon started on the + of 3. Also, it's in the key of G. Because the first note is G... on the 1. He was so cocky and sure of himself, I just let him have his win. Clearly he needed it more than I did. He was a terrible employee.

I think the OP should learn to count. You'll be absolutely shocked at how a little bit of knowledge and skill can put you above and beyond 80% of people out there. Just don't fall into Dunning-Kruger territory like the people in my examples.

 

[retslock]

I recently started taking lessons and my teacher wants me to count beats rather than just feel the beat.

At first I didn't mind this, as the exercises we were working on were pretty simple. But as the lessons get more complex, I find that counting is neutral at best and distracting at worst. I don't feel like counting is helping me keep time, but I'm spending a lot of mental energy and focus doing it, and sometimes it's getting in the way of actually playing melodies.

My teacher has said that everybody counts, yet I've never come accross discussion of counting in all my years of playing music, and only one other person has ever mentioned it (and they said they didn't do it.)

What's your stance on counting rather than feeling the beat?

When I'm learning tricky parts but generally not after that. Foot tapping does the job.

 

[Papageno]

I find it useful to count the rest beats or bars. Keeping your place when you're not playing is more challenging than when you are playing.

In most cases, the internal time perception does the job. However, there are situations where it can be misled. This is where the counting helps.

 

[the_Ryan]

I've been thinking about this statement for a bit.

When I reflect on my learning, I realize that almost every new concept “got in the way” of my playing. The process of thinking about it, teaching my body to play it, and listening if I got it right is not a very musical process, it doesn’t feel good. As Anthony Wellington says , it’s not a blissful state. the only way past that is to go through : practice until it’s ingrained, instinctive , and you “feel” the count.

I think there’s two kinds of musical “feel”: ignorant feel and knowledgeable feel

Ignorant feel is the player who can groove for days but can’t tell you what 8th note upbeat that Ab is on( and maybe doesn’t even know it’s Ab.) Such players are easily derailed by circumstance, and have trouble communicating their ideas

Knowledgeable feel is the player who can groove for days, and always knows exactly where they are and what note they are playing. They aren’t thinking about it, they just know. Because they put in the mindful practice time.

And that's why I think "counting vs feeling" is a false choice.

If you currently always know exactly what beat and subdivision your on,
(or can almost instantly communicate it ) Then the count is ingrained in you
and you can stop consciously thinking about it.

If maintaining awareness of the count hampers your feel, then you need to practice it more

In a similar vein, I've tried to reframe the word "difficult" as "unfamiliar" in my own vocabulary: often times when we encounter something that's giving us trouble it's not because it's difficult, it's because we're not used to doing that thing, and only by spending many hours failing and slowly getting better at doing the thing does it become more comfortable.

 

[the_Ryan]

100%.

"Gets in the way" is really just an expression of frustration at not being able to do something -- anything -- immediately and without trouble.

When you're frustrated with a difficult task, you've got two choices: Give up, or power through the frustration and work at it until you can do it.

It takes a hell of a lot less energy and focus to give up, but what do you learn from that? Ultimately, you learn to give up when the going gets tough. And there's a lot of tough music out there.

Pushing our current abilities and learning new things are the primary ways we grow as musicians: if you want to get better, playing the same things the same way isn't going to achieve that goal once you've achieved familiarity*, and ideally learning new things and pushing our abilities will improve what we already know.

It's also perfectly okay to not pursue things you're not interested in musically. I'll give a personal example: for a long time I struggled with jazz improvisation and learning standards, and although I could've applied myself and become very good at blowing over changes and acquiring a large mental library of standards, I came to the realization that those were things that I liked the idea of being able to do more than actually doing them, when I did work on those things and improve I never felt musically satisfied, and ultimately playing straight ahead jazz was just not something I wanted to do with my musical career, and I eventually found ways to stretch myself musically that were more aligned with what I actually wanted to do.

 

[micahwc]

After playing for nearly 30 years, I generally don't count the beat unless the song has particularly difficult rhythm sections.

Last Christmas my church played a song where the chorus went into three measures of 7/4 followed by one measure of 8/4, I had to count those sections. I had to count the 7/4 as 1231234 because my brain couldn't handle 1234567

 

[Tom Bomb]

…
The counter-argument figures. Math's intrinsic, whether you give it concrete numbers or not.

It's not abstract. It's calculating. It's music. Patterns. The numbers add up to form a map that guides the soul, that leads you home, by the ear.
…

 

[Phil Smith]

If you're a bassist that reads, you are also a bassist that counts.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I was an advanced drummer and grew up reading and counting. I don’t count for simple stuff. As soon as things get complicated, counting becomes your lifeline.

Here is what the drum player, Josh Foster is hearing in his headphones during live Black Music Honors 2023 performance - the click (always), plus information about the song's sections.

It's cool.

 

[Tom Bomb]

…
Painting by numbers.
…

 

[sean_on_bass]

I recently started taking lessons and my teacher wants me to count beats rather than just feel the beat.

At first I didn't mind this, as the exercises we were working on were pretty simple. But as the lessons get more complex, I find that counting is neutral at best and distracting at worst. I don't feel like counting is helping me keep time, but I'm spending a lot of mental energy and focus doing it, and sometimes it's getting in the way of actually playing melodies.

My teacher has said that everybody counts, yet I've never come accross discussion of counting in all my years of playing music, and only one other person has ever mentioned it (and they said they didn't do it.)

What's your stance on counting rather than feeling the beat?

I feel the two aren't mutually exclusive as your teacher might be indicating, which i am hoping they are not. I am definitely not counting beats in my head at all times, but sometimes it can be helpful when a certain arrangement requires me to play hits on a certain beat or part of the beat. Also helpful when reading music and having long periods of rest. If i have to rest for 16 bars, i am likely to count them in my head as not to come back in at the wrong place.

As for the skill itself, you absolutely should learn how to count a sub-divide beats. It will help teach you the difference between note subdivisions and help you figure out hard to read rhythms or hard to hear rhythms. At the most basic level you should know how to count whole/half/quarter/eighth/sixteenth notes against a time signature.

 

[lokikallas]

“Feeling” is what people who don’t know how to count do. It’s like knowing how to solo without knowing the names of the notes. It can work, but its a lot easier to communicate with band members if you know how to count and the names of the notes you are playing.

 

[SteveCS]

…
Painting by numbers.
…

Assuming you mean post #75, there is a degree of that going on. On the other hand it is understandable for such a big, over-produced (IMHO) and highly choreographed show. But at least you can hear the bass...

 

[pklima]

There are obviously scenarios where you won't count; playing with a click, counting every beat would feel weird to me, and maybe just counting some subdivisions on tricky bits.

I definitely try to count when practicing, even if it's Simandl exercises I've played a bunch of times, and playing will switch to conscious counting sometimes, for example when really slow stuff is syncopated. Mostly just kinda keep an unconscious internal pulse, and get a feeling of tension when something that's supposed to come in in the middle of a bar is about to happen. It's weird.