Counting: Yea or Nay?

[SLO Surfer]

What's your stance on counting rather than feeling the beat?

I think it’s important to be able to do both. Like most music theory, you “learn it to forget it.” That is, study it, learn it inside and out, and then forget it while you’re actually playing and rely on your intuition, which is now guided subconsciously by the theory.

For counting beats specifically, I use it tons when sight reading music, which I made a living at for some time so I used to count non stop. Nowadays I’m not sight reading on gigs anymore. But I still count beats when trying to learn a new tricky part, or when I’m trying to nail subdivisions, or when I transcribe music from ear down to paper, or sight read music on my own time, or when I communicate with band members. (That last part is more important than many give credit)

Counting beats while playing is an important skill for any bassist, or musician for that matter, to have that will only help you understand and communicate the music you play. Is counting beats necessary for you? I can’t answer that, but I personally wouldn’t have had the career playing bass or life experiences I cherish without it.

Oh yeah, you gotta feel the beat too, but feeling and counting aren’t exclusive from each other. You can do both simultaneously. In fact, you should always feel the beat, whether you’re counting or not. If that makes sense.

 

[logdrum]

There are really good players and teachers that will tell you that you missed the tie on bar 53 or something like that. That takes some serious dedication to counting

Dancers count, so musicians should too. Because it's NOT all 1, 4, 5 down packaged into 12 bar blues or 16/32 songs.

Up to you though. Because if we did get together, the pedants may not actually be able to play and the tab guy is actually a virtuoso - a non reading one.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

I recently started taking lessons and my teacher wants me to count beats rather than just feel the beat.

At first I didn't mind this, as the exercises we were working on were pretty simple. But as the lessons get more complex, I find that counting is neutral at best and distracting at worst. I don't feel like counting is helping me keep time, but I'm spending a lot of mental energy and focus doing it, and sometimes it's getting in the way of actually playing melodies.

My teacher has said that everybody counts, yet I've never come accross discussion of counting in all my years of playing music, and only one other person has ever mentioned it (and they said they didn't do it.)

What's your stance on counting rather than feeling the beat?

No. I change when we're supposed to. It's sub conscious.

 

[bigdaddybass12]

Yes, and tap my foot. It was beat in me at 12 years old in elementary school band.

 

[And I]

i count when reading, or when trying to learn something tricky. once i've learned something, i'm not counting it while i'm playing it.

 

[the_Ryan]

Learning to count will help you "feel" the music later: you don't know if your feel is precise until you count, preferably with a metronome and at varying tempos. Many genres of music do have some tempo or beat division fluctuation, but I think those things are easier to feel when you already have the metronomic grid in your body as a reference point.

 

[Drop1]

I've never counted. I've tried a few times, but counting throws me off.

I danced and dj'd for many many years. That taught me time.

I have tried counting again lately but it does me more harm than good.

I get hung up on note expression and note length more than anything. Any time i find myself struggling, thats the reason.

 

[Tom Bomb]

…
You can count on it. Goes without saying.
…

 

[bassbrad]

@Gopherbassist in my experience both approaches are valid. I learned music both ways and have yet to completely reconcile those differences even fifty + years on. Leaning music by count is necessary for any interest in classical or otherwise written music as that is how music is scored along with pitch, key and dynamics and to some degree expression. Learning by ear is the best way to develop feels and styles. The sooner you develop both the better.

Many classically trained musicians never get "off the page" constrained to that level or musical performance but that has changed much since my indoctrination. That indoctrination sets rules for music as well as the skill to be able to perform music unknown to them by a skill known as sight reading.

By the ear or primitive musicians always have the challenge of communicating with other players , especially those indoctrinated as well as developing skills in more complex musicality.

 

[ryco]

As long as you know where one is. Counting is good for figuring out odd time signatures. But after awhile you don't need to count the time signatures one hears all the time.
Counting in subdivisions is good for figuring out claves.

Once you can count out time, beats per measure, and they become familiar, then one can go ahead and feel the pulse of odd time instead of counting everything out. But as a rhythm section guy one is going to want to understand the count so you can communicate with the other section members should the need arise.

 

[SDC1-ClickClack]

Perhaps you may be able to get by without counting if the only music you will ever play is dead-simple 4/4, 3/4, 6/8, or 12/8. However getting "lost" (i.e., losing track of exactly where in the song you are) is very embarrassing, especially if it happens in front of an audience. Any songs that involve odd meters, compound time signatures, or occasional bars of 2/4 or 3/4 can leave you confused if you are not paying attention and counting. Not just progressive rock, but also jazz and Cajun music, and even a few Country tunes, can trip you up in that way.

 

[dc-upright]

I am counting in my head most of the time if it is simple and all the time if it is more complex!

 

[Ed Fuqua]

As others have alluded, it's not a constant thing. You do it till you don't need to do it. Kind of like reading a STOP sign, you get to a point that you do't have to read the word, you just know what it is. If you were at the point that you knew where the beats were falling in a measure, then counting wouldn't be such an impediment i.e. if you know that the line you want to play starts on the and of 4 and it's tied to a quarter note you don't have to guess or feel it.

 

[Gopherbassist]

Your teacher wants you to count during practice and in your lessons so you won’t have to on a gig. I

He has said the opposite. All counting, all the time.

 

[Derry Murbles]

I absolutely count while playing, mostly while learning new material until other cues prevail or the feel of the song gets burned in. It’s the only objective way that I know of to communicate the timing of a riff, transition, or change to your band mates who don’t know the song as well as you do (as long you’re all counting the same thing as a “1”).

Take for example the intro of Walkabout by RHCP. The count of beats in between each phrase (or whatever you call it) before you start the next one goes 9, 8, 9, 8, 9.

The drummer and guitarist came to rehearsal not having mapped out the timing and didn’t know when to start the next bit. Once I gave them those counts, boom, they knew the mapping and just had to execute on it instead of wasting time letting them get the feel of the section blindly, solely based on feel.

I find counting to be an invaluable tool in mapping/learning tricky songs and communicating with other musicians who can’t absorb and execute on the feel of odd timings quickly.

 

[Gopherbassist]

Question - are you counting in the context of reading (or learning to read), or just counting as you play through stuff from memory or that your been shown without reference to written music?

He has said to always be counting.

 

[tb-player]

He has said the opposite. All counting, all the time.

I'm sure he has a good reason, if he's a decent instructor. You should discuss it with him and understand the 'why' behind it. If you disagree or if you have no intention of following his instruction, you should fire him and find someone you will learn from. Otherwise, you're wasting your money and frustrating yourself and your teacher. I hope you figure it out.

 

[DrBnz]

If I'm stumbling thru a part I'll go back and analyze it. Meaning to count it out. But otherwise a foot tap is about all you get.

 

[hennessybass]

Yes, and tap my foot. It was beat in me at 12 years old in elementary school band.

i count when reading, or when trying to learn something tricky. once i've learned something, i'm not counting it while i'm playing it.

I also learned counting / tapping your foot in middle school band. I still tap my foot a lot.

I also count when learning, reading, or doing anything tricky - until I've got it.

I'd say when I'm playing: I'm counting sometimes. Usually when the beat gets funky (maybe because of a guy who doesn't count good). So, not actively counting, but I am always keeping the beat - tapping my foot, knowing where the one is, etc...

IMO, if you are going to be a performer, you gotta have the rhythm. It's fundamental and needs to be able to happen in the background. That can take a lot of work.

 

[bigjames]

I think being able to count is important, whether if you actually do it or not. Some rhythms are pretty tricky to just feel, especially if you're learning it off paper.

This. Once you know the rhythm, you dont need to count, you can feel, but if you are sight reading a new tune, counting can be really helpful.