Counting: Yea or Nay?

[Tom Bomb]

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Truly. I do appreciate those clips — great insight. Such a huge advantage to have it all mapped out in this way. It's almost cheating wink wink
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Assuming you mean post #75, there is a degree of that going on. ...

 

[Phe]

Two things I wish I didn't skip when I first got started is counting and playing by ear.

 

[turf3]

After more than 50 years, there are still times where I'll mark above a rhythmically confusing place in a chart something like "1 2 +" to make exactly clear where I'm supposed to hit a note.

For unwritten things I have to do this occasionally as well. I can't think of any examples right off the bat, but a real good example of where I would have to count to end up in the right place would be "Black Dog".

If your teacher is taking you back to fundamentals and having you count every beat, it means that you're not solid on feeling the beat, and you should follow the pedagogical method. You will not be still counting "1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-" when you've been playing 20 years; but if you don't get your time feel solid early, it's almost impossible to bolt it on afterward. I have played with far too many people who've done all their practicing alone, and they can play alll the notes but they can't put them in the right places. Remember, the right note in the wrong place is a wrong note.

 

[turf3]

I've never counted. I've tried a few times, but counting throws me off.

I danced and dj'd for many many years. That taught me time.

I have tried counting again lately but it does me more harm than good.

I get hung up on note expression and note length more than anything. Any time i find myself struggling, thats the reason.

So how does it go when you play along with a metronome? That's the acid test.

 

[turf3]

He has said to always be counting.

That tells me your time is bad. Keep working at it. Use a metronome almost always when practicing.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

I may count while learning a song, but during a performance I only count measure to know when to change chords or song parts.

 

[Drop1]

So how does it go when you play along with a metronome? That's the acid test.

I don't know what you mean by this.

 

[turf3]

I don't know what you mean by this.

Well, how far back do you want me to go to explain?

A metronome is a device that makes a loud clack or tick or clang with regular timing. You can set it at any speed (within reason). When people who're learning how to play music first try to play along with a metronome, they generally have GREAT difficulty in keeping their notes in time with the regular ticking of the metronome.

So play whatever it is, scales, arpeggios, various patterns, in time with a metronome. If you have no trouble matching the timing of what you're playing wiht the ticks of the metronome, you're doing fine. If you find the metronome appears to be speeding up and slowing down - well, 'tain't the metronome, it's you, you're speeding up and slowing down, and you need to work on your time.

I can always tell the person who never practices with a metronome and sits at home playing - their time is ALL OVER THE PLACE. Most common is the phenomenon where they get to a technically-challenging passage and sllloooooowwwww doooowwwwwn, making sure to play every.single.note.in.the.pattern, but none of them where they should be. This is especially infuriating when the person in question is a guitarist who's supposed to play an introduction that leads all the rest of us into the tune; and when they finish the intro passage no one has a freaking clue what the tempo is supposed to be.

Thus my statement that the acid test of time is playing with the metronome. There are all sorts of variants on this - for example you can set the 'nome on just 2 and 4; you can set it on just 4; you can set it to click on every other 1; the longer the time between metronome clicks, the more likely it is that you will drift away from acccurate time.

Until you can play with accurate time, you can't reliably stretch and rubato things.

Practice with the metronome!

 

[Drop1]

Well, how far back do you want me to go to explain?

A metronome is a device that makes a loud clack or tick or clang with regular timing. You can set it at any speed (within reason). When people who're learning how to play music first try to play along with a metronome, they generally have GREAT difficulty in keeping their notes in time with the regular ticking of the metronome.

So play whatever it is, scales, arpeggios, various patterns, in time with a metronome. If you have no trouble matching the timing of what you're playing wiht the ticks of the metronome, you're doing fine. If you find the metronome appears to be speeding up and slowing down - well, 'tain't the metronome, it's you, you're speeding up and slowing down, and you need to work on your time.

I can always tell the person who never practices with a metronome and sits at home playing - their time is ALL OVER THE PLACE. Most common is the phenomenon where they get to a technically-challenging passage and sllloooooowwwww doooowwwwwn, making sure to play every.single.note.in.the.pattern, but none of them where they should be. This is especially infuriating when the person in question is a guitarist who's supposed to play an introduction that leads all the rest of us into the tune; and when they finish the intro passage no one has a freaking clue what the tempo is supposed to be.

Thus my statement that the acid test of time is playing with the metronome. There are all sorts of variants on this - for example you can set the 'nome on just 2 and 4; you can set it on just 4; you can set it to click on every other 1; the longer the time between metronome clicks, the more likely it is that you will drift away from acccurate time.

Until you can play with accurate time, you can't reliably stretch and rubato things.

Practice with the metronome!

I know what metronome is lol
I didn't, and still don't, get the "acid test" reference, though I do understand what you meant by it now.

 

[pklima]

I think the term "acid test" goes back to the old practice checking whether gold is real or fake by applying a drop of some sort of acid and checking if it dissolves.

 

[turf3]

Sorry for using standard idiomatic English. Is English not your first language? Those of us who grew up with the complete list of English expressions often don't recognize when we're using an idiom that others may not understand.

 

[tshapiro]

Here is what the drum player, Josh Foster is hearing in his headphones during live Black Music Honors 2023 performance - the click (always), plus information about the song's sections.

It's cool.

My band has the same kind of click/call out tracks. Keeps everything consistent and tight. We spend hundreds of hours making them. The drummer and bassist both must have a great command of the tempo or it turns into a train wreck. We’ve done this for 20+ years so it’s second nature for us.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

We’ve done this for 20+ years so it’s second nature for us.

I like your approach.

 

[attackz]

I think the confusion comes with conflating practice with performance. When you're performing, you probably wouldn't count unless you absolutely had to.

You want to work on counting during practice for the 1 or 2 % of the time that you need to fall back to counting on a gig. It will also make your playing more accurate. If you're practicing something and notice the feel isn't quite right, if you're good at counting, you can check every note and make sure it's falling on the correct subdivision. 9 times out of 10 you'll find you're slightly late or early on a tricky 16th note.

 

[pepj]

Both..