Covers vs Originals

[IanStephenson]

I think only the most naive of originals bands would view grassroots venues as any other than to, at best, break even while trying out songs and performance technique in front of an audience.

But why is that: Two venues on the same street. Both have bands on, both are full on a weekend night.

One has spent money on the venue, and doesn't charge a cover, but can pay $400/band (not amazing money but OK pay for a 3 piece).

The other is taking $1500+ on door, and spends nothing to maintain the venue, but would you like to play for free? You do get exposure...

 

[Lostgallifreyan]

I heard Originals kept leaving the cap off the toothpaste so Covers filled the tube with hot sauce.

Now now, keep it clean. >

 

[BatBasstard]

But why is that: Two venues on the same street. Both have bands on, both are full on a weekend night.

One has spent money on the venue, and doesn't charge a cover, but can pay $400/band (not amazing money but OK pay for a 3 piece).

The other is taking $1500+ on door, and spends nothing to maintain the venue, but would you like to play for free? You do get exposure...

If the venue with the originals band were full, the original’s band would be making a fortune.

I don’t know about in the USA but over here it works like this:

Covers bands are paid a fee to provide music in a bar where people go to drink and hear music - be that a live band, a dj or a recording. Patrons usually have free entry.
The patrons are there to socialise, drink and listen to stuff they know

Originals bands (and/or music promoters) hire venues that have stages, lighting, PA systems and a bar. They usually pay a straight fee to cover hire & staff.
These events are ticketed.
They get to keep typically anywhere between 70% and 100% of the ticket priced.
Anyone who attends has bought a ticket to specifically see the acts playing.
It’s down to the promoter/acts to sell the tickets.

Your analogy doesn’t work in that world.

 

[Killing Floor]

Stevie Wonder and Billy Shears taught us we all need to live together like piano keys.

 

[IanStephenson]

If the venue with the originals band were full, the original’s band would be making a fortune.

Your analogy doesn’t work in that world.

I wasn't making an analogy. I was talking about two venues near my home (in the UK), that I've been to recently, and I know people who were playing there.

The originals venue was full. It was ticketed. The "promoter" was the venue and they took the ticket money. Two musicians in different originals bands that I spoke believed that they were playing for the exposure, but were hoping to maybe get something thrown their way at the end of the night. They were NOT making a fortune.

Another told me (of another venue on same street): "the guy who runs that place is great - he lets is play there anytime we want and the place is always packed! It's such a great night, we couldn't dream of asking for money".

 

[BatBasstard]

I wasn't making an analogy. I was talking about two venues near my home (in the UK), that I've been to recently, and I know people who were playing there.

The originals venue was full. It was ticketed. The "promoter" was the venue and they took the ticket money. Two musicians in different originals bands that I spoke believed that they were playing for the exposure, but were hoping to maybe get something thrown their way at the end of the night. They were NOT making a fortune.

Another told me (of another venue on same street): "the guy who runs that place is great - he lets is play there anytime we want and the place is always packed! It's such a great night, we couldn't dream of asking for money".

I think on the one hand the people you are describing have been taken for a ride…..

on the other hand I also think if the venue are consistently getting 150+ people to pay £10 to see a bill of originals bands they’ve never heard of week in, week out then they are frikken great promoters.

They should sell training.

 

[Lostgallifreyan]

I don’t know about in the USA but over here it works like this:

Covers bands are paid a fee to provide music in a bar where people go to drink and hear music - be that a live band, a dj or a recording. Patrons usually have free entry.
The patrons are there to socialise, drink and listen to stuff they know

Originals bands (and/or music promoters) hire venues that have stages, lighting, PA systems and a bar. They usually pay a straight fee to cover hire & staff.
These events are ticketed.
They get to keep typically anywhere between 70% and 100% of the ticket priced.
Anyone who attends has bought a ticket to specifically see the acts playing.
It’s down to the promoter/acts to sell the tickets.

There's a third standard. Open-mic nights, talent nights. It's a very old format, both sides of the Atlantic. It may have all but vanished, but covid has made it necessary to reconsider the roots, just to find new ways to get audiences willing to congregate in confined locations. The fact that such events deliberately blur the boundary of 'original' vs 'cover' is critical to their ability to provide that renewal. Settled formats only work in settled times. It must now be obvious to all that we are NOT in settled times.

If people are looking down their noses at this renewal of very old ways, they're likely to get left behind wondering how they missed out.

-----

Another notion that comes up in this thread in a few posts is the notion of success, when a band is 'there'. Of ALL the spuriousest of spurious measures... It's like keeping eyes on the prize. Keep your eyes on the ball, says I.. If a person can't enjoy playing at a modest context, they'll probably never find any better. And if the money's the problem, they're probably in the wrong job. And those who are lucky enough to make loads at music probably shouldn't be forgetting where they came from. No-one's born to it, well, maybe very few.. I can't think of any rock 'dynasties'. Putting on side in music making just seems pointless to me.

I remember a guy who I vaguely knew at one time, last I saw of him he departed looking over his shoulder, back at me. Friendly enough, but it was like he was Concorde, nose in the air, on his way to the musical stratosphere. Wherever he is now, I have NO idea. There are a few I knew who DID make it, very big (people in Massive Attack, and Portishead). Not one of them knew this would happen, at the time they met me, using a small 4-track I had to make a demo tape, and I certainly didn't (the band name wasn't the same, they were called The Wild Bunch). They did what they did, they were like outsiders, they just did it. Maybe they wanted to make a mark, but I don't think they kidded themselves about the odds. They did what they did because they liked doing it, they liked working together, and they didn't care how basic the context was that they worked in. They just went with something they sensed might become popular. They might have been wrong, but they weren't.

They ended up blowing the notion of 'original' and 'cover' right out of the water.

 

[Bunk McNulty]

I think you'll find it's a mixed bag. For me I can say that my experiences in originals bands have greatly informed what I do and what I think about music in general, and some of that leaks out in how I approach doing covers. The way audiences react to the unfamiliar, for example, is an important thing to understand when doing both sorts of bands, but it informs planning for each in different ways. And so on.

On the converse, the way I approach doing original music is also well-informed. I still write it, I still produce it, but I don't perform it for a variety of reasons. There are circumstances where I might, but I haven't leaned into that sort of situation lately because it would be difficult to create and sustain to my own satisfaction.

What many people in both situations don't realize is that it's important to craft an experience for your audience that they will relate to in some way and cannot get elsewhere. If you can't write catchy songs that will grab an audience as though they've been heard before, you're going to have a more uphill battle getting audiences familiar with your music. And, in general, it's a different audience.

Covers tend to appeal to people who like to go out, whereas original music might be a serious destination event for people. In other words, the people who go out to see cover bands are going out frequently and looking for the most fun musical experience they can find, whereas the people who go to see original music might only go out once or twice a year to see their favorite bands because they liked what they heard on Spotify or Pandora. It's much harder to get those people out. On the other side of that coin, if you can get the attention of those people and they really, really love you, they'll follow you around relentlessly. And that's true for both covers and originals.

These things, of course, are true in my own experience with the kinds of bands I've been in, but may not be relatable in other genres or regions. My cover band makes a point to give people a unique experience that isn't gimmicky but is something they can't get elsewhere, and whenever we play we receive a ton of good feedback on those aspects because we've planned it that way. I probably would not have had the insight to plan things that way had I not experienced audiences from both sides of the live music world. All of that has helped me understand what audiences are motivated by.

This pretty much tracks with my experience. I never was able to get any kind of following with my originals band, other than musicians who knew me from the cover bands I played in. My current employer came with a built-in following: Many of the people who come to a lot of our gigs went to high school with her. It took me years to figure this out, until this past summer when we played at a local joint that was, coincidentally, the scene of the classes of '80 and '81 reunions. There was a lot of mutual flipping out: "What! You guys are here, too!" Pretty much defined our demographic, too.

 

[BatBasstard]

There's a third standard. Open-mic nights, talent nights. It's a very old format, both sides of the Atlantic. It may have all but vanished, but covid has made it necessary to reconsider the roots, just to find new ways to get audiences willing to congregate in confined locations. The fact that such events deliberately blur the boundary of 'original' vs 'cover' is critical to their ability to provide that renewal. Settled formats only work in settled times. It must now be obvious to all that we are NOT in settled times.

Yeah.
A good open mic is a gift from god for aspiring originals artists.
However the reason I’d left these out of my posts is that there are vanishingly few that are both good and able to cope with complete full line up bands with a drummer.

Which brings me to reminding everyone:

All I was trying to find out when I started this thread was if that when someone makes a post here in Band Management like “
The Band that can't change..A.K.A. I've decided to just let it go.” (a recent post) Are they more likely to be talking about an Original’s Band or a Covers Band?

Not: Are Originals Bands “better” than Covers Bands (or vis versa).

Not: Is there more money in Covers bands.

Not: What’s the deal with dodgy venues?

Etc.

 

[LBS-bass]

Yeah.
A good open mic is a gift from god for aspiring originals artists.
However the reason I’d left these out of my posts is that there are vanishingly few that are both good and able to cope with complete full line up bands with a drummer.

Which brings me to reminding everyone:

All I was trying to find out when I started this thread was if that when someone makes a post here in Band Management like “
The Band that can't change..A.K.A. I've decided to just let it go.” (a recent post) Are they more likely to be talking about an Original’s Band or a Covers Band?

Not: Are Originals Bands “better” than Covers Bands (or vis versa).

Not: Is there more money in Covers bands.

Not: What’s the deal with dodgy venues?

Etc.

To answer this, I think that if you can't tell from the context, you probably have to ask them. In the case of the thread you reference here, we're pretty familiar with this poster's ongoing issues with this particular band because that's one of several threads where he has earlier described in detail what they do. It's a cover band.

 

[BatBasstard]

To answer this, I think that if you can't tell from the context, you probably have to ask them. In the case of the thread you reference here, we're pretty familiar with this poster's ongoing issues with this particular band because that's one of several threads where he has earlier described in detail what they do. It's a cover band.

i honestly just picked the first one I saw that wasn’t obvious from the description .

I think, not least by the sheer volume of unprovoked defensiveness exhibited, my query has been answered.

 

[LBS-bass]

i honestly just picked the first one I saw that wasn’t obvious from the description .

I think, not least by the sheer volume of unprovoked defensiveness exhibited, my query has been answered.

Stick around here and you'll learn that there are a lot of repeating dynamics, and also a little bit about who is doing what sort of thing. Then you'll have a bit more context to lean on when you're reading posts here. There's probably not a better answer to give you.

 

[mrcbass]

I 'm pretty exclusive to the cover scene.

I'd suspect my gigs would fall into a "small" category - typically dive bars and a few private parties and wineries - typically 5-50 people in the crowd. Way too many closer to 5 than 50, but there have been a few with more than a hundred.

I've done a little work with originals and would again for the right situation, but doing covers is my bread and butter.

 

[JRA]

I feel like some contributors to this to this thread are forgetting that we are talking specifically about posts made in this Band Management Forum around band management issues not around the types of musician or musicianship generally or the relative merits (or not) of “Covers vs Originals Bands”

“If you are posting a question about band management here in this Band Management Forum about the band that you are managing, is that band a covers band or a originals band because the advice for one might be wildly inappropriate for the other. Perhaps it would help to get a sense of what proportion of posts are about each scenario.”

All I was trying to find out when I started this thread was if that when someone makes a post here in Band Management like “
The Band that can't change..A.K.A. I've decided to just let it go.” (a recent post) Are they more likely to be talking about an Original’s Band or a Covers Band?

why not ask?

you wanted to be clear about the distinctions between cover bands and originals bands (given your own experience, great or small), but some of us wouldn't consider that distinction to be important for some issues that are raised here, more important for other issues, and very important at other times, etc., and when we're not sure = we ask!

if you can't surmise from the discussion/thread what the context is = ask the OP!

good luck seeking clarification!

 

[socialleper]

The majority of people on TB are older and play covers. If you are playing originals take some of the advice with a grain of salt as people here are often in a covers/hired gun bubble.

 

[BatBasstard]

The majority of people on TB are older and play covers. If you are playing originals take some of the advice with a grain of salt as people here are often in a covers/hired gun bubble.

Shhh…. It seems that even contemplating that sort of thing pushes some peoples triggers..

Seriously, I asked in all casual innocence and with good intent & now seriously regret asking.

 

[Lostgallifreyan]

I think maybe the difficulty getting an answer is that only looking for posts via search will get there, because it's a leading question. A poll might have got the quick-fire response, unmediated by second thoughts, but people can change a vote anyway. Unedited history might help you but it's a big forum, I wouldn't want to search that hard.

My guess is that insisting on cover vs original might itself be difficult for many, given the tendency to keep exploring the boundary, even blur it deliberately.

There ARE people who will divide this as binary, but it may well be fewer than you're hoping for, so even if you got straight answers they might not tell you nearly as much as looking at why people give the answers they do. It was a good question, but I think there was no way it was going to be constrained in its outcome.

 

[BatBasstard]

I think maybe the difficulty getting an answer is that only looking for posts via search will get there, because it's a leading question. A poll might have got the quick-fire response, unmediated by second thoughts, but people can change a vote anyway. Unedited history might help you but it's a big forum, I wouldn't want to search that hard.

My guess is that insisting on cover vs original might itself be difficult for many, given the tendency to keep exploring the boundary, even blur it deliberately.

There ARE people who will divide this as binary, but it may well be fewer than you're hoping for, so even if you got straight answers they might not tell you nearly as much as looking at why people give the answers they do. It was a good question, but I think there was no way it was going to be constrained in its outcome.

I don’t think I’ve ever regretted asking such an innocent question more man……

 

[Lostgallifreyan]

I don’t think I’ve ever regretted asking such an innocent question more man……

No worries, I am led to believe that scientists go through this, a lot. When they ask a question that provokes many unexpected answers, they usually consider it a good thing.. Overwhelming maybe, but generally good. It's when they ask a complex question and can't get anything but simple answers that they worry. Even here, that can get frustrating.

 

[BatBasstard]

why not ask?

you wanted to be clear about the distinctions between cover bands and originals bands (given your own experience, great or small), but some of us wouldn't consider that distinction to be important for some issues that are raised here, more important for other issues, and very important at other times, etc., and when we're not sure = we ask!

if you can't surmise from the discussion/thread what the context is = ask the OP!

good luck seeking clarification!

“Why not ask?”

Because I’ve been sifting through this forum (doing a kind of meta analysis of “good advice” I suppose if you wanted to be as tediously forensic as some people have been) looking for useful nuggets of gold and some overarching patterns only seemed to make sense if the vast majority of posts and answers were about the experience of being in a band that wasn’t totally focused on writing, recording and playing original material (again a tediously forensic description forced on me by the nature of the responses to a request for a simple poll).
I just wanted some confirmation (or refutation) that my assumption was correct.

(Again I’m spelling this out only since we seem to be in a very pedantic place) Understanding that would help me further filter what is an isn’t helpful to my current situation.

To reach a similar place of extracting lots of useful advice by reading through all the posts would require me asking on every post if I did as you suggest.

Thats “Why not ask”

It seems I severely underestimated what a (inexplicably) triggering post this would be.