Cranking The Bass Knob

[JimmyM]

correct, live is different than studio. and i didn't see you specify "live" in your post.

IME, a lot of why people like to mic their 810 with tube head is because of the pleasing breakup they get from that configuration. yes, high SPL levels are required to get that sound out of tube heads and 412 cabs for tracking metal guitars, but much of the magic of micing SVT's is exactly this. In live settings. At reasonable non ear bleeding stage volumes. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Well you can get preamp distortion out of an SVT-CL or 2 Pro at lower volumes, but power tube distortion at lower volumes is impossible. But when I was micing, I always ran the same as I do now that I gave into the DIing grudgingly...clean amp with pedals for dirt. I was just always into the slightly different way a bass amp mic'ed up where it sounded like you could actually feel the sound wave moving on the mic diaphragm. Gave the sound some balls I could never get with a DI till I switched over to a REDDI or speaker level DI on a tube amp.

 

[Wasnex]

A speaker breaking up is not a sound. Distortion is an effect - a cab simply cacking out as it is being pushed too hard is just an ugly sound.

A speaker cone can also have a breakup mode that can sound great with a distorted signal. Generally this is a guitar thing that is distinctly different from a speaker farting out because it has greatly exceeded its excursion limits. Some bass speakers are also noted for getting a nice fuzzy sound as they approach their limits.

Link Removed

 

[J.Wolf]

Well you can get preamp distortion out of an SVT-CL or 2 Pro at lower volumes, but power tube distortion at lower volumes is impossible. But when I was micing, I always ran the same as I do now that I gave into the DIing grudgingly...clean amp with pedals for dirt. I was just always into the slightly different way a bass amp mic'ed up where it sounded like you could actually feel the sound wave moving on the mic diaphragm. Gave the sound some balls I could never get with a DI till I switched over to a REDDI or speaker level DI on a tube amp.

totally, I mis-spoke that you can get that breakup with tube power sections at lower volumes. More accurately I was thinking that you can get breakup from an SVT driver without killing small animals. But to do it with a 300w SVT you'd need to get up there in volume.

 

[7615]

correct, live is different than studio. and i didn't see you specify "live" in your post.

IME, a lot of why people like to mic their 810 with tube head is because of the pleasing breakup they get from that configuration. yes, high SPL levels are required to get that sound out of tube heads and 412 cabs for tracking metal guitars, but much of the magic of micing SVT's is exactly this. In live settings. At reasonable non ear bleeding stage volumes. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Actually I did. It started with me pointing out guy walks into rental area plays horrible distorted sounds at full blast and says that was great. If the guy checked out a clean sound as well maybe that was intentional - but he didn't. The rental jockey's complain that is often the case. If these guys were like oK lets check out what this bass sounds like clean I might be more circumspect - no they don't - just turn it to 11 until the speakers cack and go "that's the sound". One dynamic - as loud as possible all tone controls cranked - volume cranked - and bleeding speakers - yes it could be argued that is their sound - sure --- they have one sound and that is what they picked -

Spinal Tap was funny because it was so true.

 

[J.Wolf]

A lot of people pick the worst way to get from point A (desiring a dirty sound) to point B (getting a dirty sound). I remember when I was working NAMM for Accugroove in the early '00's. We brought a couple rigs to the Dean Markley iso booth for one of their super jams (50 people in a 120 degree room big enough for 20 people). This young Asian guy was going to use one of the rigs for the jam, a El Whappo with a Merlin head (hardly the gear to get breakup from) and thought he'd be super cool by rolling his arm along the row of knobs as a "cool guy" way to dime everything, then playing as hard as possible. Well, that lasted about 13 seconds until the amp died. And then he looked at me as if to say "what gives with your crappy gear?". I didnt know what to say other than "Have you visited the Behringer booth yet? I'm sure theyd love to have you".

I'll stick with clean tube preamps, SS poweramps, and pedals for flavor. I dislike most distortion anyways, so I'm real weird/finicky when it comes to dialing it in to my liking. Lately a VMT dlx has been working just fine for me. Before that, a SolidGoldFX BEta, and a BB bass preamp before that. /digression

back to topic: use HPF pedal, boost bass on instrument or amp, be very pleased.

 

[7615]

A lot of people pick the worst way to get from point A (desiring a dirty sound) to point B (getting a dirty sound). I remember when I was working NAMM for Accugroove in the early '00's. We brought a couple rigs to the Dean Markley iso booth for one of their super jams (50 people in a 120 degree room big enough for 20 people). This young Asian guy was going to use one of the rigs for the jam, a El Whappo with a Merlin head (hardly the gear to get breakup from) and thought he'd be super cool by rolling his arm along the row of knobs as a "cool guy" way to dime everything, then playing as hard as possible. Well, that lasted about 13 seconds until the amp died. And then he looked at me as if to say "what gives with your crappy gear?". I didnt know what to say other than "Have you visited the Behringer booth yet? I'm sure theyd love to have you".

I'll stick with clean tube preamps, SS poweramps, and pedals for flavor. I dislike most distortion anyways, so I'm real weird/finicky when it comes to dialing it in to my liking. Lately a VMT dlx has been working just fine for me. Before that, a SolidGoldFX BEta, and a BB bass preamp before that. /digression

back to topic: use HPF pedal, boost bass on instrument or amp, be very pleased.

I am always trying to get the cleanest possible sound from a bass. Use no pedals , no effects and rarely use the mid scoop on my GK. Even a second pick up - started using on a couple basses has been a challenge / distraction. If the pick up is mid rangey - cranking the bass rarely helps. I now tend to go for the cleanest sound of what the bass wants to give. And an amp with lots of power but never pushed hard is best - never past halfway (lots of headroom and halfway is pushing it) . Distortion to me is getting those round wounds to growl on command.

 

[J.Wolf]

I am always trying to get the cleanest possible sound from a bass. Use no pedals , no effects and rarely use the mid scoop on my GK. Even a second pick up - started using on a couple basses has been a challenge / distraction. If the pick up is mid rangey - cranking the bass rarely helps. I now tend to go for the cleanest sound of what the bass wants to give. And lots of power but never pushed hard is best - never past halfway (lots of headroom and halfway is pushing it) . Distortion to me is getting those round wounds to growl on command.

for years I sought out gear that was the cleanest of the clean. I thought clean equalled flat and that flat was what I wanted. Then I realized my sound wasn't pocketing exceptionally well in busier mixes. Now I'm working my way back. I still go for cleaner sounds, but I really value some light harmonic distortion in the midrange, which helps pocket the bass in the mix. I mainly get this from my tube DI's and not amp or pedal distortion. This seems to be the best way for me to split the difference in a way that is pleasing to my ears in band settings.

 

[7615]

for years I sought out gear that was the cleanest of the clean. I thought "flat" equalled clean and clean was what I wanted. Then I realized my sound wasn't pocketing exceptionally well in busier mixes. Now I'm working my way back. I still go for cleaner sounds, but I really value some light harmonic distortion in the mid range, which helps pocket the bass in the mix. I mainly get this from my tube DI's and not amp or pedal distortion. This seems to be the best way for me to split the difference in a way that is pleasing to my ears in band settings.

some light harmonic distortion in the mid range - not sure what that is

As years go by I have become much more attracted to the mids in the bass sound - probably because of the band I currently play in - classic 3 piece and I want the bass to sound like a bass guitar - not a standup.
Also when the guitarist is on a solo and the architecture of the song is down to the rhythm section, the bass is the only one with notes. Too much bass and if the song is fast it just comes out as mumbles. Played a street gig with a soundman who was in love with the subs. Reduced me to a bass organist for an hour. Once I knew the soundman was hopeless we altered the play plan by the third song - worked out but a case where too much bass made it impossible to play the songs with the usual approach and the alternative was to play as little as possible.

Speaking of Behringer - I showed up at an after hours to be presented with a small Behringer bass amp and I was playing a gut string bass. The amp had no bottom and it amplified the woodiness and finger noise and had zero sustain. By the third song I was loving it. Because I could hear clearly and just had to play to the strengths of that sound. Too much bass to me is the toughest obstacle to overcome on the fly as it lacks any distinctiveness.

 

[nostatic]

"bass" can mean different things to different players, amp companies, preamp manufacturers, etc. Devil is in the details.

One concern is the kick drum - I don't want to fight that. Often it will be in the "low bass" region, so dialing that up on your amp can be a problem or not depending on the drummer, style of music, etc. If there are keys involved, that can complicate things as well. Hell, I've had fights with guitars around their eq in a dense mix, with guys wanting to crank the lows on their boutique tube amp because it sounds so "full". Yeah, until you have another guitar, keys, two saxes, three vocalists, and a rhythm section going . Even acoustic guitar can be problematic. Sunday we were doing a trio hit and the guitarist had a great sounding AER amp. But when he tapped the body, it was right in the sweet spot for bass and kick. If the groove and timing is perfect it *can* work. But things are rarely perfect...

 

[BadExample]

You They hope.

 

[Omega Monkey]

How does the sound guy feel about you cranking the bass on your amp?

Cutting the right mids (usually a range in the low mids and probably another in the mid mids or uppper mids) and then boosting the overall volume is a much better approach if you want a deep big sound. What that does is allow that lowest half octave or so of fundamental "catch up" with the usually much louder next octave or so. At the same time it kind of does the same thing up top, so you get a little of the air of the highest harmonics (like 5k and above, which there IS stuff there at least if you're playing rounds that aren't dead), without overdoing the harshness that seems to take over from about 1.5-3.5k.

 

[JimmyM]

How does the sound guy feel about you cranking the bass on your amp?

Most sound techs like it because they know I'm trying to be appropriate for the room and the overall sound of the band. If I need to cut bass, I usually know to do so, and I'm not above fulfilling a request for me to cut it if need be.

Cutting the right mids (usually a range in the low mids and probably another in the mid mids or uppper mids) and then boosting the overall volume is a much better approach if you want a deep big sound. What that does is allow that lowest half octave or so of fundamental "catch up" with the usually much louder next octave or so. At the same time it kind of does the same thing up top, so you get a little of the air of the highest harmonics (like 5k and above, which there IS stuff there at least if you're playing rounds that aren't dead), without overdoing the harshness that seems to take over from about 1.5-3.5k.

I'm playing dead rounds. Anyway, if it works for you, that's great and we should all do what we need to do to advance the overall sound of the music we're playing, but I got this. Don't worry...I'm a professional

 

[Omega Monkey]

Fair enough, but I can't really imagine any "room" in which that would actually sound remotely good. Maybe with a wall of guitar cabs (ie an SVT into 8x16 ohm 4x12s). Oh wait, you use sealed cabs, that explains it. Still can't imagine it not getting awfully muddy in FOH.

 

[JimmyM]

Fair enough, but I can't really imagine any "room" in which that would actually sound remotely good. Maybe with a wall of guitar cabs (ie an SVT into 8x16 ohm 4x12s). Oh wait, you use sealed cabs, that explains it. Still can't imagine it not getting awfully muddy in FOH.

I use sealed and ported cabs. It doesn't matter which I use. But it sounds way better than remotely good. It sounds freaking excellent. I'm not just willy-nilly cranking the bass knob like some newb. I think I made that clear in the OP. I'm trying to achieve a level of warming low end in the mix, and once I get it, I stop.

 

[alaskaleftybass]

I am going to admit something that may get me raked over the coals...I love cranking the bass knob! Didn't always...took me a long time to warm up to the idea. But now I'll turn the bass up all the way if I need to. Gotta be judicious about it sometimes...don't want to overcrank the lows in a dark sounding room with a lot of natural reverb or anything dumb like that. And mids are still important if you want some note definition as well. But over the past years, I've gotten less shy about warming up the room real good, and I think it's working out great, and I don't get why so many people on here tell bass players not to do it. The lows are what people mostly hear out of your bass in a mix. Might as well let them have it.

There. I said it. I do something considered wrong by conventional TB wisdom, and I do so unapologetically. Take that.

Just don't blow up that BA108's speaker @JimmyM !

 

[Downunderwonder]

Just don't blow up that BA108's speaker @JimmyM !

The reality is far from the tenor of the OP.

 

[J.Wolf]

this is highly entertaining.

Jimmy, you also want to make sure you tune your bass before the show. And wash your hands after using the bathroom.

 

[beans-on-toast]

I wash my hands well before and after I play my bass.

 

[agedhorse]

I wash my hands after mixing hip hop and rap, just seems the right thing to do.

 

[beans-on-toast]

Sometimes they need to have their mouth washed out.