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Crazy8 and Crazy88

#161
When I got my Crazy8 I played CDs through it for a day or so to break in the driver. Needless to say, the sonic quality was fabulous - much better than the existing 8" mains. So one thing lead to another and Mike made me two more Crazy8s for new mains in the home studio. The sound is remarkable. I had these built with stackable plastic corners so the mains also can double as a "Crazy88" stack. Bought a pair of modified "L" connectors to convert the quarter inch jacks into Speakon. Takes a couple of seconds to grab the pair off their wall platforms for gig duty. They include pole mounts in case I want to use them with a PA at a small gig venue. The last photo shows stack next to a LDS 12/6 cab and my bass.

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#163
The Eagle has landed.

Came today. I've played with it some and my first impressions are favorable. It gets reasonably loud. Probably louder than I will need and in the AE210 range. I did max it out with some low notes on an active 5 string but it was pretty loud when it happened. The build quality seems excellent.

The only cab I have right now to A/B with is an Avatar 212 neo. It looks like a buyer will be picking it up tomorrow so I wanted to do some comparison. As expected, the 212 has more of what I would call girth but the 88 has more of what I perceive as clarity. I think this is due to a FR dip in the 212 around 2k. Alone, it gives the 212 a smoother sound at the same amp settings. The 212 will get louder. The 88 is much easier to carry up and down the steps. Ridiculously easy.

I know cheezy soundclips don't mean much but here are some of the 212 and 88 with a Streamliner 900. I hate playing alone and hate recording myself alone even more but I'm going to take one for the team.

Here's the setup. Note the orb in the photo. I think this means the ghost in my basement likes it.

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First two are with my friends Conrad viola bass he's letting me use for a little theater deal where we're doing a few beatles songs.





The next are with a stock MIA fender jazz with the neck p/u soloed, tone rolled off a bit.





Perhaps these will inspire a real bass player with an 88 to post some clips.

I'll be rehearsing the theater thing tomorrow night so I'll see how it does with the band in a reasonable volume pop setting. It seems cabs always seem louder out of my basement than in it. Don't know why.
 
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#164
Oh man--I forgot to mention that I ship an apparition with each cab. I'm also trying to get the new Fdeck HPF happening. Lots more volume and low end clarity with it. Makes a HUGE difference with the B string. Played a really loud gig last Saturday with an 88 and an 8. Volume and low end control went up drastically with the HPF. I would have to have added at least one more 8 to get equivalent volume.
 
#165
Mike Arnopol said:
Oh man--I forgot to mention that I ship an apparition with each cab. I'm also trying to get the new Fdeck HPF happening. Lots more volume and low end clarity with it. Makes a HUGE difference with the B string. Played a really loud gig last Saturday with an 88 and an 8. Volume and low end control went up drastically with the HPF. I would have to have added at least one more 8 to get equivalent volume.
Click to expand...

Right now I'm in my "final approach." My self imposed rule is that I carefully check the schematic, then check the printed circuit design against the schematic. If I find any mistake, I fix it, wait until the next day, and re-check everything again.

I'm on the next day right now. :rollno:

Then I order circuit boards, which take a few days to arrive.

Now of course a preamp designed for use with the new high performance speakers needs to be tested. And that requires a speaker... :rolleyes: So I confess that I bought one of those newfangled 8"ers and built a box for it. I'd have simply bought one, but I've got the DIY bug. And I made every mistake in the book. Friends don't let friends use cheap plywood. :atoz: Still, it works well enough to try out at a gig tonight.

My build is a bit more traditional, with a recessed baffle and rectangular grille. I didn't want to shell out for a custom grille, or buy a huge sheet of the perforated steel, so I bought an 18" round grille and cut a piece out of the middle with metal shears, then used the rubber gasket that came with the grille to hide the slightly rough edges.
 
#166
fdeck said:
Right now I'm in my "final approach." My self imposed rule is that I carefully check the schematic, then check the printed circuit design against the schematic. If I find any mistake, I fix it, wait until the next day, and re-check everything again.

I'm on the next day right now. :rollno:

Then I order circuit boards, which take a few days to arrive.

Now of course a preamp designed for use with the new high performance speakers needs to be tested. And that requires a speaker... :rolleyes: So I confess that I bought one of those newfangled 8"ers and built a box for it. I'd have simply bought one, but I've got the DIY bug. And I made every mistake in the book. Friends don't let friends use cheap plywood. :atoz: Still, it works well enough to try out at a gig tonight.

My build is a bit more traditional, with a recessed baffle and rectangular grille. I didn't want to shell out for a custom grille, or buy a huge sheet of the perforated steel, so I bought an 18" round grille and cut a piece out of the middle with metal shears, then used the rubber gasket that came with the grille to hide the slightly rough edges.
Click to expand...

When you do get there, keep me in mind...I'd love to be an early adopter. (not that you didn't know). :)
 
#169
I've read in other threads the streamliner has HPF built in. I think I've seen Agedhorse saying more isn't beneficial. Something about not really being able to know what the cumulative effect multiple filters will have.

It's rated 900watts at 4ohms so when I say it maxed the cab it's not like it shouldn't if you turn it up. I was trying to be careful but I was also trying to see what it would do. I really think I had it louder than I will ordinarily need. We'll see.
 
#170
nutdog said:
The only cab I have right now to A/B with is an Avatar 212 neo. It looks like a buyer will be picking it up tomorrow so I wanted to do some comparison. As expected, the 212 has more of what I would call girth but the 88 has more of what I perceive as clarity. I think this is due to a FR dip in the 212 around 2k. Alone, it gives the 212 a smoother sound at the same amp settings. The 212 will get louder. The 88 is much easier to carry up and down the steps. Ridiculously easy.
Click to expand...

Did you do the testing/record with the same amp settings? I'm wondering how close you could get the 88 by turning down the treble on the tonestack and perhaps adding a low-mid bump instead of one in the upper-mids.
 
#171
Derek Kiernan said:
Did you do the testing/record with the same amp settings? I'm wondering how close you could get the 88 by turning down the treble on the tonestack and perhaps adding a low-mid bump instead of one in the upper-mids.
Click to expand...

Yes, same settings. It was a quick down and dirty a/b. I've never gigged the avatar but the amp settings are typical of what I was using with the berg + a 112 cab. The treble is down a little more because it was very pronounced in the 88.

Tonally I think the 88 will approximate the 212 better than the 212 will do the 88. But the 88 won't get the wide bottom the 212 can. IMO, wide bottom is sometimes overrated, particularly indoors. I think that the clarity of the 88 will help in a group setting. Tonight's practice will be a good test. It's a community theater but not in the theater. It's in their back room they call the cabaret lounge that's set up more like a small/medium club with a stage and dining tables. It's a very lively room which is exactly the kind of place I find myself turning down the low end and boosting mids.

I'm planning on going into the PA but I'll try without just to see. My plan from here on out it to use PA for gigs that need more volume which is why I thought this cab my be sufficient for me. Although Mike's 40lb dually is looking very tempting.
 
#172
I thought the 88 did very well at practice. As suspected, it didn't need to be at the volume used to make the clips. But there were a few wrenches to keep things confused.

The drummer used an acoustic kit. He usually uses Vdrums. Most people seem to prefer real drums but I love electronic kits. All drummers should come with a volume knob.

He's a good drummer and I love playing with him. But it was too loud even though he said he was playing a soft as he could. He didn't have rods or brushes. The guitar player was happy. He likes to "rock out". But this is a theater fundraiser. We're not playing for young people who want to be deaf when they're older. We're playing for older deep pockets. We don't want them to die before they can write a check.

Sorry, rant over.

Even still, the 88 was fine for stage volume. Plenty loud. With Vdrums at proper volume I think it would carry the room (maybe 80 people at tables), but it got lost a little in the mix out in the room, mainly because the drums were echoing. I could have turned it up a little more but I didn't want to. It was too loud anyway. For the next practice we're going to run the bass into the PA and have the Vdrums so we can lower the stage volume. Knowing things were going to be completely different next practice I didn't spend huge amounts of time piddling with knobs.

The cab also benefited from being on a raised stage. The hollow space underneath really helped the low end (I think:confused:).

So overall I'm pleased but I didn't really get to use it in the the typical setup. If you want to "rock out" with a loud drummer one 88 is not for you. I also think PA support will be needed for bigger rooms unless I get another cab. Another 88 with a 2ohm capable head or I may go for a 40lb dually.

Playing with the EQ I was able to get a tone similar to the avatar. It was actually at noonish settings on the streamliner, which typically produces a scooped sound, which reinforces my opinion that the avatar is missing something in the high mids, giving it a more mellow tone at similar settings. Lowering the bass let the 88 cut a little more in the group setting.

What was a little surprising was how well my friend's 70's Ace Hardware Conrad viola bass sounded for the Beatles songs. I really like that thing. Who knew that Ace was the place with the cool bass?

I'm using 3 basses for this show for looks. The funny thing is that the cab was the easiest part of the load.
 
#173
Practiced with vdrums last night. DI to pa. Set my amp to lower level than last practice. Sound guy said I was overpowering the rest of the band and had me out of PA.

So I turned all the way down and let him bring up pa level. Then all I needed was to barely turn up. So it seems more than adequate for my needs.

While he had no bass in the pa I stepped out to hear the room. The bass was loud but not what I would call full. More mids than low end. With the pa it was full without having to be loud.

He did say he was expecting to see a big cab and was surprised that all that sound was coming from that little box.

My objective was to trade the AE210 for a cab that would match it at half the weight. On its own in a band setting the 88 performed like the 210 did. It filled the stage but the round bottom end didn't fill the whole room.

I'm going to meet with the guy that bought the berg for a direct comparison in a couple of weeks.
 
#174
nutdog said:
The cab also benefited from being on a raised stage. The hollow space underneath really helped the low end (I think:confused:).
Click to expand...

This may have actually made the sound more boomy and distorted with some possible cancellations. Hollow stages can be a bad source of mechanical coupling.

Anyways...I certainly appreciate seeing these reviews. They are very well detailed and quite transparent. Thank you.
 
#175
Thanks, Nutdog
Your comments are pretty spot-on as far as our design goals with the 88. To replace a 210 cab but with a more hifi sound and half of the weight..I usually use the 88 by itself on upright and medium volume electric gigs. (the type of gigs I would take a 210 to). On loud gigs I thought I'd have to use 2 88's but I've found that if I use the Fdeck HPF I can use an 88 and an 8 and get as loud as I need to go. Just played a really loud gig on Saturday and was impressed as to the 88+8 mixing with the pa and subs. Big controlled bass.It turned out that he didn't have me in the PA because he liked the stage sound so much.
Don't be squeamish about boosting the bass a bit. The design of the 8 and 88 is that we have a gently drooping slope in the low end due to tuning at a low enough frequency to get proper low end control. We could have gotten more bass quantity in the range above 60hz but were willing to sacrifice some of the quantity for more quality and control in the low end. Which requires a bit of a boost.
I never make a judgement on the low end of comparing speakers given the same low end eq. I get them to the point where the quantity of the bass seems the same then I compare bass quality and how loud it goes before bottoming out. With Duke's Thunderchild I often plug one port. Which gives lees bass at the same eq points. But after I boost the bass a bit I find that I have better tautness and control. I'm not into the huge blooming bass thing, I guess.
 
#176
barryaudio said:
This may have actually made the sound more boomy and distorted with some possible cancellations. Hollow stages can be a bad source of mechanical coupling.
Click to expand...

The extra boominess was what seemed beneficial on the stage. It didn't really carry out to the room. And I'm a self professed hack so don't take my analysis as expert opinion.

And when I say sound guy I mean the guy who was running sound, not a pro. We weren't communicating well. He said I was overpowering and I turned down. He didn't say anything else so I thought we were good. Then I realized later he still wasn't putting anything in the PA.

Which is pretty impressive for the cab, I think, considering all the other instruments were out front in the PA and my little 88 was in the back. We could do the show with just the 88. It wasn't as good as with the PA but it could have worked.

Mike Arnopol said:
I never make a judgement on the low end of comparing speakers given the same low end eq. I get them to the point where the quantity of the bass seems the same then I compare bass quality and how loud it goes before bottoming out. With Duke's Thunderchild I often plug one port. Which gives lees bass at the same eq points. But after I boost the bass a bit I find that I have better tautness and control. I'm not into the huge blooming bass thing, I guess.
Click to expand...

The clips with the same EQ on different cabs was definitely not a good way to compare. It is possible to fatten up the 88. I didn't have much time that day and I sold the 212 the next day. I do plan on doing more but it's been a little hectic. I'm looking forward to playing around with it.

I don't think I'm into the huge bloom either but I like it when the room feels like I'm on the bridge of the Starship Enterprise. That ever present enveloping low rumble.
 
#177
Here's my new Tower Of Power, my Crazy88 from Don at Barry Audio Design. It's a beautiful, high quality, very professional build. I've just had a short time with it so far but it's what you'd expect, a Crazy8 on steroids. Matched with my Acoustic Image Clarus it beautifully reproduces the rich piano tones of my Rob Allen Solid 4 (with mag pickup and roundwounds) across the entire neck. Very, very nice.

Thanks Don!

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#179
Yes, full and tight, though it can get boomy if you goose the bass too much. Don gave me a good suggestion, to engage the low pass filter on the Clarus if needed. It tightens it up nicely and removes the boominess in that scenario.

The cab is still opening up. It's producing rich, guitar-like tones, which is what I like as I mostly play double-stops and chords.
 

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