Crest CA9 or Stewart 2.1

[Vic]

Hey Vic, it all boils down to what you put into it. Lifeless in = lifeless out, punchy in = punchy out, etc.

Hey Bob, I have the utmost respect for you, your company, and your products, but I was feeding all three EXACTLY the same thing. While your product reputation is impeccable, I'm just suggesting it may not be best suited for all applications. That's all I'm trying to say.

I suppose you could say that I was feeding all three a lifeless tone from my bass and preamp, and the QSC is the only one that didn't somehow "fix" it for me, but I'd personally prefer not to think that about the tone coming from my bass and preamps, anyway.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

Hey Bob, I have the utmost respect for you, your company, and your products, but I was feeding all three EXACTLY the same thing. While your product reputation is impeccable, I'm just suggesting it may not be best suited for all applications. That's all I'm trying to say.

I suppose you could say that I was feeding all three a lifeless tone from my bass and preamp, and the QSC is the only one that didn't somehow "fix" it for me, but I'd personally prefer not to think that about the tone coming from my bass and preamps, anyway.

I'm just telling you how they work. Like with any knowledge, you're free to use it to your advantage or ignore it. IMHO, though, understanding how things work helps you use them better.

 

[Vic]

I'm just telling you how they work. Like with any knowledge, you're free to use it to your advantage or ignore it. IMHO, though, understanding how things work helps you use them better.

Ouch. Believe it or not, I'm not ignorant to how power amps work or how to use them, and I don't believe I'm the only one that feels different power amps affect tone.

If the word "lifeless" put you on the defensive, I'm sorry. It wasn't my intent.

 

[bongomania]

We were in fact discussing the relative tonal merits of different amps. Claiming that a QSC has NO tonal qualities at all, or implying that no other amp could possibly sound better, does seem a bit "funny".

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

Ouch. Believe it or not, I'm not ignorant to how power amps work or how to use them, and I don't believe I'm the only one that feels different power amps affect tone.

If the word "lifeless" put you on the defensive, I'm sorry. It wasn't my intent.

I know you're not the only one. But if you understand how power amps work, you would not be one of them.

"Lifeless" did not put me on the defensive; I'm sorry if my correction put you on the defensive, too.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

We were in fact discussing the relative tonal merits of different amps. Claiming that a QSC has NO tonal qualities at all, or implying that no other amp could possibly sound better, does seem a bit "funny".

No, a proper power amp does not add or subtract from the tone, whether it's a QSC or Crest or whatever. That's all I'm saying. Nothing funny about that.

 

[4Mal]

I've been of the same school of thought. "Power is Power and there shouldn't be any additional color or life or ... whatever. It's about the gain."

I switched over to a 2402 in September and ... was completely under-whelmed. Dull and lifeless with my F2B running at similar settings to my old rig. Then I added an additional gain stage and that seems to be the ticket.

On the 2402 - you have to feed that amp a hot signal and attenuate on the front panel to control your volume.

In my case the additional gain comes from a parametric EQ that for the most part has the EQ out. If I get a problematic room then it's there to help.

Power amp's may be apples to apples, but within apples, there's your McIntosh, yourFuji, Your Gala, your Granny Smith ... (I'm gonna stop now, but living in Orchard country - who knew there were so many freakin' apples...)

 

[Vic]

I know you're not the only one. But if you understand how power amps work, you would not be one of them.

I fully understand how power amps work, and I'm still one of them.

I simply don't believe that there's a such thing as a power amp that is literally electronically perfect in every way, and completely transparent across a a reasonably broad audio frequency spectrum. I've had too much real life experience to counter that notion and support the notion that anything and everything in the signal path affects tone.

 

[Rockbobmel]

I tried out a PLX 2402 a few years back (while I was waiting for my Eden power amp) and found it to be gutless compared to other amps that I have used with the same speakers/pre/bass. It's the "feel thing". It was just not for me. I would not hesitate to use it for PA though.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

I fully understand how power amps work, and I'm still one of them.

I simply don't believe that there's a such thing as a power amp that is literally electronically perfect in every way, and completely transparent across a a reasonably broad audio frequency spectrum. I've had too much real life experience to counter that notion and support the notion that anything and everything in the signal path affects tone.

There are people who can make just about any decent power amp sound great, as long as its power is appropriate, it's not malfunctioning, it's not being driven into clipping, etc. And there are people who can't.

What do the former have that the latter don't? Not magic. Not spells. It's a reasonable amount of knowledge about how each piece of gear works, what it does, and what to expect it to do.

I'm just telling you how power amps work. As I said before, you can use that knowledge to your own benefit, or you can ignore it.

 

[Rockbobmel]

"If it sounds good, it is good."
-Duke Ellington

 

[bongomania]

I'm just telling you how power amps work.

No, actually, you're not. All you are doing is repeating one opinion, tersely, without any substantiation. It sounds like you are saying that everyone here who thinks a good "lead sled" design may deliver loud bass differently from a similarly-rated switching design, is deluded. Is that correct?

 

[greenboy]

No, actually, you're not. All you are doing is repeating one opinion, tersely, without any substantiation.

Well, threads where people make subjective claims really can't be anything other than non-substantiated, really. Not without getting a ton of true amp experts in, who often will disagree anyway. It's all subjective territory and some people will want to push their opinions, while others will attempt to share them. It's a tough edge to walk on either side of, and a good reason to not often post.

***

...My experience is that if the amp will function well in mains and subwoofer applications that it will be more than up to the task of bass rig duty - which is practically a walk in the park to much subwoofer/SR use. So I gotta laugh when people say they would relegate an amp to SR but don't know if it's up to the task of doing bass guitar ; } - and my personal experience has not found the PLX amps any less endowed than the Stewarts for either type of duty, or a lot of other recent gen amps for that matter. But if people have their preferences or seem to have trouble with tone-tweaking or gain-structuring for one or another, that's fine by me.

I'd be more concerned if bonafide sound engineers were finding faults than bass players, frankly ... then I'd be doing some cross-checking and self-doubting. But none of the choices is ill-favored, I think : }

 

[J.Wolf]

well, FWIW, I had a PLX for a little while and I didn't like the tone or responsiveness of it at all.

I'm also one of those guys who thinks it would be fine for a sub or a main, but not for a bass rig. Quickness and punch are alot more noticeable and neccesary in bass rigs than typical PA setups IMO, so thats why I think most amps are suffiecient for PA's but only certain amps really excel with bass rigs.

Now, I if didn't like the tone of the QSC because my Fbass, demeter preamp, and el whappo are "lifeless", you sure could have fooled me with the way they sound with my CA9, or VS650. I guess the CA9 has a way of injecting life into an otherwise "dead" sounding collection of gear.

 

[BassJunkie730]

You know all this power amp tlak reminds me.

When is carvin going to release a monoblock poweramp. I really dig my B1500 but sometimes I think it's because of the massive power section and the fact that they managed a 1900W 2ohm capability in a three rack space 11" deep package. using a traditional power supply

Man that would be awesome as a standalone poweramp.

sorry for the hijack

 

[Vic]

There are people who can make just about any decent power amp sound great...

I believe this is the key to your whole position, and I agree with this statement completely.

However, I think most people who have to work (EQ) to "make" the amp sound great (to them), feel the amp itself is lacking, and needs compensation. Therefore, if they try another and don't feel this way... etc.

I know I could've made the PLX sound good to my ears, but a primary criteria I have for amp selection is, if the first thing I do is reach for the EQ to "fix" the way it sounds to me, the next thing I do is move on to the next amp. That's what happened here with me.

Again, I fully understand this is my very subjective opinion, based on my personal tastes, and is not intended as a general statement of the quality of your products (in short, IMHO!). Hey, OBVIOUSLY, if your product sucked, you'd be out of business. As far as I know, QSC is doing fine, and there's no reason to suspect that will change.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

I tried out a PLX 2402 a few years back (while I was waiting for my Eden power amp) and found it to be gutless compared to other amps that I have used with the same speakers/pre/bass. It's the "feel thing". It was just not for me. I would not hesitate to use it for PA though.

That's very possible. Any amp won't sound any better than what you put into it. You can make any decent amp sound gutless, or you can make them sound great, depending on what you do with it. You can take bad pictures with a great camera, too, or you can choose your subject, frame the shot, etc., and get something good.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

However, I think most people who have to work (EQ) to "make" the amp sound great (to them), feel the amp itself is lacking, and needs compensation. Therefore, if they try another and don't feel this way... etc.

You EQ to make the overall bass and rig sound good, not the power amp. Practically all modern pro SS power amps from reputable manufacturers have extremely flat frequency response and very high transparency, and it's been that way for at least about 20 years, since before I got into the pro power amp business. You can drop one amp in after another, and the tone will be the same after you adjust for gain. That is how power amps work.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

No, actually, you're not. All you are doing is repeating one opinion, tersely, without any substantiation. It sounds like you are saying that everyone here who thinks a good "lead sled" design may deliver loud bass differently from a similarly-rated switching design, is deluded. Is that correct?

No, they just haven't made real sound-only comparisons.

And I have been telling you actually how power amps work.

 

[J.Wolf]

so Bob- How do power amps work?