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Double Bass Criticizing millionaires

I found this Jarrett review by the great pianist Matt Shipp refreshing:
http://thetalkhouse.com/reviews/view/matthew-shipp-keith-jarrett-gary-peacock-jack-dejohnette

This is in response to thread I posted, but I want to move it here to address the issue:
I actually didn't want to criticize the bassist in the video - however, the climate around here that it was verboten was really, really distressing.

My basic feeling is that a musician should not just get "Knighted" by the critics, fans and promoters and become untouchable. In fact, my feeling is those at the top should be criticized more openly and more honestly than those getting less of the resources.

I am actually into Jarrett's music, his organ album is a masterpiece, I like the trio fine, his solos are always worth hearing. I still think Shipp's points are valid, and critical honesty makes the music as a whole better.
I see this as a different situation than "badmouthing" another musician.

Discuss.
 
Okay, against my better instincts and risking limb and flame, I'll bite. Fortunately, I don't think anyone actually knows where I live so I can't have my house bombed.
First, I agree that it's appropriate for less accomplished musicians to assess more accomplished musician's skills because that's how we learn. We need to form opinions, uneducated or not to improve our musicianship and artistry. As long as we're open to changing our minds later with better skill and/or info.
As a less developed player than John Clayton or Lynn Seaton, my opinion is an entire lifetime's less informed than theirs. Still, the audience doesn't only consist of such masterful musicians. So, I agree that it's reasonable for less accomplished players to assess more developed players performances and not all of those performances will be up to their best work.
For example, Ella Fitzgerald recorded a bossa nova album. In my opinion, it's pretty awful because she never acquired the bossa sway rhythm correctly. Do I think any less of her? A bit, I suppose because I wish she had learned more about the style before doing the recording. Does it matter? Not really. She was still a genius, IMO. And, one could argue that she did the album her way and that's enough. I don't agree, but I do think it's a matter of opinion.
As to this specific article about Keith Jarrett: I believe that Jarrett intentionally tries to create an *artistic* effect about his performances which disrespects his audience. Call it *marketing*. His recent incident in Italy demonstrates my point: he stopped playing when someone in the audience took a photo with a flash. The audience member should not have done that, certainly, but Jarrett also should not have interrupted the performance to scold the audience, IMO. It would have been more appropriate to continue the set and remind the audience between sets. The audience IS paying to be there, so I feel that Jarrett crossed the line in that case. Biting the hand that feeds him. You could argue that tantrums like this further elevate his *artistry* but I don't buy it, personally. Even the most genius artistic performer is a performer. Otherwise, why play for others? Just play for yourself - no interruptions, no schedule, no jet-lag, NO MONEY.
Finally, Jarrett's playing is, I believe, authentically, him. It's not Bill Evans or others. It feels authentic to my ear but I, personally, don't enjoy his trio work as much as I enjoy Evans with LaFaro. And, as good as Gary Peacock is in this setting, he's not Scott LaFaro. I almost always enjoy Jack DeJohnette's playing however. I do chalk that up to personal preference. Is that a slight to Jarrett? Not really, because they're different musicians at different times. Do I enjoy Jarrett's recordings? Definitely. As much as Evans and LaFaro? No. Will I stop buying Jarrett's recordings because of that? No. Do I think Shipp has a point? Not really, because Jarrett isn't Evans. Do I enjoy every note that Jarrett plays? No. Did I enjoy every recording of Evans LaFaro? No. I think some of Jarrett's recordings are great and others don't quite work, as Shipp points out. I think that's the nature of true jazz. Some of it's brilliant and most of it isn't and I'm good with that if once in a while I get that brilliance.
The good news is now I can rely on others to tell me how I'm wrong. All I ask is that you be gentle, and kind. It's not me you're criticising but my ill-informed opinion, and I'm open to changing my opinion.
Final point, man, now I'm really in for it: I admire McBride and Ron Carter's mastery and talent. I even admire and cop specific phrases that they've played, but I don't usually enjoy their performances. I MUCH prefer Ray Brown, Lynn Seaton, and Scott LaFaro. I understand why many folks love Ron Carter, he is brilliant, no argument, but I don't enjoy his playing as much as they do and I think it's just personal preference because there's no doubt that they're unbelievably talented bassists.
 
The article is "dancing about architecture" railing against other people's "dancing about architecture", and as such is the kind of thing I try to ignore from both ends of the spectrum. The music either works or it doesn't, and other people's words don't affect that one iota either way.

To quote/paraphrase the article, "[Keith is] not a music writer — just an ***hole musician — so don't put any weight behind his taste. It's just that — his taste. ... There is some nice music on the disc. That should be all that matters."
 
Funny, I see lots of people writing very critical and disparaging things about Keith. I think he is held to a higher standard by many critics and fans. The Matt Shipp article comes across, to me, as an agenda driven whine by someone with a slight chip on his shoulder. Also, I would be very surprised if Jarrett is a millionaire.
 
I think some people feel it's hip, daring and free-thinking to criticize something other people like. To me that's what Shipp was doing in this article. I also find his reference to "middle aged white critics" offensive and elitist. But that's me, and I have felt that some Jarrett trio recordings have moments of transcendent communication between the players. I'm sure I'm infinitely more of an ***hole musician than either Shipp or many of you, but that's my taste.
 
Funny, I see lots of people writing very critical and disparaging things about Keith. I think he is held to a higher standard by many critics and fans. The Matt Shipp article comes across, to me, as an agenda driven whine by someone with a slight chip on his shoulder. Also, I would be very surprised if Jarrett is a millionaire.

That trio gets $60,000 a gig, not to mention his recordings which have sold incredibly well. Unless he has crazy habits/hobbies, I'd imagine he is more than a millionaire.

I am using Jarrett as a metaphor here for the bass players at the top. The climate here at talk bass is that they are untouchable, where I think they should be scrutinized even more.
 
This is in response to thread I posted, but I want to move it here to address the issue:
I actually didn't want to criticize the bassist in the video - however, the climate around here that it was verboten was really, really distressing.

One of the most childish things I see regularly on TB is when people respond to criticism of their favorite bassist with, "Oh yea, can you play better?" IMHO, there is nothing wrong with respectfully voiced criticism. I can't play better than Victor Wooten, but I know what sounds good to me and I wouldn't feel that I couldn't voice an opinion on his music (actually I like Victor and his music).

I don't know why some people are so threatened by other people's opinions. These are opinions, not documented, foot noted facts. There are a lot of bass players out there that I don't care for. I can play better than some, not as good as others; it doesn't make my opinion any less valid.

Having said all that, this review is right on the edge of being disrespectful. Most of it seems valid to me, but to call him pretentious is uncalled for. I'm also not sure why it is relevant how much anyone makes. Money measures popularity, not talent. If you doubt that, look at Justin 'the punk' Beiber.
 
I am using Jarrett as a metaphor here for the bass players at the top. The climate here at talk bass is that they are untouchable, where I think they should be scrutinized even more.

Yeah, but do most of us have the skills and knowledge to fairly criticise these guys?

The top few % of bass players probably hear things in music that i'll never understand. That's why they're the best (whether that's because of natural ability, better education, or just much more practice is besides the point)

To put it another way, when a top flight bassist plays a line I don't like, I could criticise the line, but how do I know that it's the line that's the problem? Maybe I just don't get it, maybe I'm the problem, maybe he operates on a level I just can't understand and it's a brilliant line.

Heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect
 
A lot of the more vocal and accomplished players on here can actually play just as well as the top players out there.

Perhaps they can, maybe they can't. The point is are we actually good enough to know 100% that that's the case? And even if most of us think that we are, the Dunning-Kruger effect means that the majority of us will be wrong and not even know it.

I think it is fair to hold a player making 10 times (or more) as much as you to higher standards than yourself.
If you put yourself out there as an artist then you're going to be criticised. Some of it will be valid, but most of it probably wont be. Some great musicians will never be sucessful because they haven't got a thick enough skin to cope with that. I think that's unfortunate. Personally I never hold anybody to a higher standard than myself. The fact that others are better than me is what fills me with the piss and vinegar needed to motivate my improvement :)
 
And that's also very stupid if you ask me. Those who can, do, those who can't sit in the audience and talk **** or become jazz critics.

Anyways, back to your regular [DEL]programming[/DEL] absurdity.
 
I agree with Matt Shipp. I take as the main point that there are great players who adorn, mix and match existing styles and approaches, and then there are the masters: those who create a musical universe entirely their own. I hear for example Brad Mehldau, Keith Jarrett, Oscar Peterson in the first group, and Cecil Taylor, Thelonious Monk, Erroll Garner in the second group.

I agree with Damon about the 'accepted halo'' around certain musicians making them off limits for the wrong reasons. Much more disturbing to me are great players or music masters (such as Anthony Braxton), who have been unfairly mowed down for decades by critics, or even worse, fellow musicians.

I have heard Matt Shipp perform several times and he is a great player without a shadow of a doubt as far as I am concerned. So he is certainly entitled to have an opinion, if that were an issue. While he can be a crank at times, I applaud his honesty. I also applaud that he doesn't move aside from bullying by guys like Stanley Crouch.

For masterful bass players you might never heard of: go check out Ken Filiano or Ratzo Harris, when you can.
 
The point is, music touches people emotionally. Either you can make it happen, or you can't. Those that do it often are usually celebrated for it. Hype like a one-hit-wonder is one thing. But if you've got sustained momentum over several decades, you're doing something right regardless of what the detractors might say.

Critique all you want. If MS was in KJ's shoes, I doubt if he would be singing the same whiny song that he does now.
 
Most greats in order to get there have to be fairly self-critical I'm sure just to get themselves up to that point. So to some degree, I wonder how much criticism from others gets through to them. It seems to depend on the individual. Some are immensely humble, like when I read Sonny Rollins response to a Lee Konitz interview about S.R. Others seem to almost refer to themselves in third person.

Anyways, at least from a students perspective we have to be able to acknowledge the imperfections of the greats. Because I'm okay with the fact Paul Chambers can't play in thumb position, I'm better able to appreciate him and see him for what he was. A technical master, but not in all things. Making the distinction is important for a moment I feel. I don't obsess on it, but I do know it.

Doesn't make Paul less of a hero to me. Just means that I know there is more out there and other types of great. I wouldn't recommend Paul to someone who really just wanted to play in thumb position. But I would recommend him to someone wanting to hear really good music. Keith's a mixed bag. A lot of people assault him for things I don't feel are important, and then forgot to mention the things that really are issues. Sort of like Jaco always getting hated on for playing lots of notes and having a thin tone on the BG side. Whatever issues Jaco had, that wasn't really a serious one.

Some greats reminds me of what happens when I play with my oldest buddies I've always played with. Our art deepens every time, but rarely do we really push ourselves out of our comfort zones. And so the music can start to get stale until we decide to change things. But when you're being paid to do something, changing it can be risky.
 
Hrm... PC can't play thumb position? That's a new one to me. Esp with all that arco he did?

Smells awful fishy to me. Maybe you're right, but that kind of comment gives me the feeling that someone is about to get bitchslapped. One thing I learned is never assume what great can't do this-or-that. You always get surprised in a nasty way.

I'll only believe the great that they have restrictions if it comes out of their freaking mouths. If you've noticed, the true greats are the most humble and gracious people in the world. Even those that have bad myths surrounding them also are very very good examples of charity and selflessness.

As for risk, IMO, if you aren't chancing something, you're not evoking the spirit of jazz. But that's just me and my interpretation of it. Jazz should not be "safe". I might play safe because I suck but the best music always has some amount of vulnerability in it. That's what makes it so good.
 
Hey if you have an example of Paul playing in tune up and down the upper register in the manner of Scott La Faro and Gary Peacock (his contemporaries) then share it with me. I listen to Paul more than anyone, but he barely ever gets above the G harmonic.

Maybe I've missed some secret treasure trove of Paul recordings where he's killing it up there but I feel like someone would have told me along the way.

Since when did playing arco imply playing in thumb position?

Actually I'd argue that the greats, just like every other category of human are a very varied group. Some are humble, some are proud. They are just people.

Milt Hinton never admitted to not being able to kill in thumb position. I guess we should venerate him as an incredible thumb position player since there's no way of knowing. Maybe I should tell people my thumb position inspiration is Milt Hinton.

Do you see how little bearing that realm of technique has on the greatness of MH? Why does it matter that as far as we know, there are no examples of him laying into it Eddie Gomez style in the upper register? It doesn't matter to me.