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Double Bass Criticizing millionaires
- Thread starter damonsmith
- Start date
Craig,
I respectfully disagree with your premise that he can't. I don't think there is enough information to use the word "can't" in this context. Unless, of course, you either knew him personally and well enough to know his ability or have some other imperial knowledge that you haven't disclosed. I believe the only thing you can say for certain is that there are no (or very few) recorded examples of him playing in thumb position. That proves nothing regarding his actual ability or inability to play there.
-Jeff
... and at this point I doubt he's gonna be learning much of anything.
I think it is ok to criticize the successful, even if one does not have a track record that compares. However, how much meaning others may put to our own opinions may be directly related to our own track record of success or failure. That is fine.
ie. I am not a professional film-maker... and I've never been in charge of anything with a $200 000 000 budget , but I absolutely have the right to say that "Transformers 2: Revenge of the Fallen", sucked as a movie. It was crap, even within the 'summer blockbuster, special FX, made for boys, mindless fun' genre. I watched it... it was not good. Do I have to be a professional film maker to critique it? Or even more strict, are only professional film makers who have been in charge of films costing more than $150 000 000 allowed to critique it? I say no. Not if we critique the final product on screen as a viewer. However, that small club of elite movie-makers who have been in charge of big-budget movies can critique Michael Bay's handling of the whole production process, in ways that the rest of us cannot.
ie. I am not a professional film-maker... and I've never been in charge of anything with a $200 000 000 budget , but I absolutely have the right to say that "Transformers 2: Revenge of the Fallen", sucked as a movie. It was crap, even within the 'summer blockbuster, special FX, made for boys, mindless fun' genre. I watched it... it was not good. Do I have to be a professional film maker to critique it? Or even more strict, are only professional film makers who have been in charge of films costing more than $150 000 000 allowed to critique it? I say no. Not if we critique the final product on screen as a viewer. However, that small club of elite movie-makers who have been in charge of big-budget movies can critique Michael Bay's handling of the whole production process, in ways that the rest of us cannot.
I agree 100% and I suppose this is really the point of the OP. I don't think this particular critique of KJ is good (it sucked) but he(KJ) in not above being criticized even by the likes of us TBers.
-J
I feel like people who are getting 10 grand plus a gig need to be held to higher standards than those who are fitting in practice around a day gig.
Technique isn't the only criteria if the music is happening. I am not against Haden holding the neck like a baseball bat when his magical lines are coming out of the bass.
People got all uptight about me remarking on Avashai's technique but IMO it was holding his music back and for the fees he gets it is reasonable to expect him to put a little time into the instrument.
I am not really asking for an un-tempered flow of s$&t talking.
The primary issue is that music has no oversight. My opinion is that it needs some. I don't think what Shipp wrote is perfect, but it is start of some that could be positive for the music.
The music needs to be more important than these guys making expensive car payments.
Technique isn't the only criteria if the music is happening. I am not against Haden holding the neck like a baseball bat when his magical lines are coming out of the bass.
People got all uptight about me remarking on Avashai's technique but IMO it was holding his music back and for the fees he gets it is reasonable to expect him to put a little time into the instrument.
I am not really asking for an un-tempered flow of s$&t talking.
The primary issue is that music has no oversight. My opinion is that it needs some. I don't think what Shipp wrote is perfect, but it is start of some that could be positive for the music.
The music needs to be more important than these guys making expensive car payments.
I agree and longfinger's point is really that ultimately it's the audience who decide - if you can't engage an audience, then in many ways technique,experience, skills etc. don't matter.
We are all sitting in the audience and have the option to walk out, at any time!
Sorry damon, but this is s$&t talking. Judging from the blog,Shipp is incredibly jealous of jarretts' success, imo. That's all. Damning with faint praise is always a waste of breath, and that's what Shipp has done. The music need more than that. What people spend there $$ on is none of your business. They've earned it, they got the gig.
Sorry to go off topic but this thread made me look up Keith Jarrett. I don't listen to Jazz so I didn't know who he is. I'm watching/listening to "Keith Jarrett Standard Trio" on Youtube. Again, I don't know anything about Jazz but I do like how this sounds. However, Jarrett's vocal noises are hilariously distracting. It sounds like Cartman from South Park.
My wife always says he sounds like Jerry Lewis.
Funny, he didn't affect those antics when he was with Miles
yeah KJ is annoying with the vocalizing, so don't listen to him already
Vote with your ears, buy someone else's recording, don't go to his concerts, ect. Hey if you are so passionate, why not picket at his gigs? For gawds sake....these musicians have the audacity to drive the car of their choice with money they've earned legitmately..
and with the money they earned they prolly got lots extra, right?,..and hey, it's not like they ever mentor new talent either, or donate to causes they feel are important to their community and world.
Shipp wouldn't have written that article if he didn't want exactly what KJ has..an ability to quantize the intangible in a form that communicates with audiences of piano music of different genres. And fill concert halls, if only by a lucky stroke. IMO, Shipp just thinks it should be done his way., and he's tailgating on KJ's success in an attempt to ram himself in the path of commercial success they way he see's fit. Maybe if he offered restraining devices to audience members so they wouldn't walk out of his concerts, or cover their ears would work for him...yeah, he could call it the "Matt Shipp Hold"
Vote with your ears, buy someone else's recording, don't go to his concerts, ect. Hey if you are so passionate, why not picket at his gigs? For gawds sake....these musicians have the audacity to drive the car of their choice with money they've earned legitmately.. and with the money they earned they prolly got lots extra, right?,..and hey, it's not like they ever mentor new talent either, or donate to causes they feel are important to their community and world. Shipp wouldn't have written that article if he didn't want exactly what KJ has..an ability to quantize the intangible in a form that communicates with audiences of piano music of different genres. And fill concert halls, if only by a lucky stroke. IMO, Shipp just thinks it should be done his way., and he's tailgating on KJ's success in an attempt to ram himself in the path of commercial success they way he see's fit. Maybe if he offered restraining devices to audience members so they wouldn't walk out of his concerts, or cover their ears would work for him...yeah, he could call it the "Matt Shipp Hold"
If I had magical powers i could end all wars too!
If you are so passionate about that concept, what's the point of blowing air here? Why waste time? Why don't you go out and convince a promoter that they should do this..and if you find someone who believes your vision enough to put out the bucks, you are going to be ready to pick up the tab when if the show bombs...?
Point is KJ is worth it, or he wouldn't be getting it.
MS is the first pianist that I've heard disparage KJ. All the best players I know think he is an MF, period. I don't like the vocal antics, but his playing is superb. The old quartet I heard live three nights in a row was one of my top five musical concert experiences.
Unlike rock/pop, jazz and related musics at the upper level are usually funded by grants and foundations. So few if any of these artists "earn" it in pure capitalist sense.
Perhaps my language was strong, but please look at the bigger point of my example. It was illustrated effectively. Since my language was not nearly as strong as one of my detractors, I think I should be given at least a bit of a break. Once again look at my use of can't and perhaps more importantly look at my original post. Anyways, my understanding was there was a 5 year period where PC was the most recorded bassist in jazz. Surely if he had it he would have used it. Ray Brown did. George Duvivier did. Miles was known not to be so cool with the bow on bass, but Paul made that happen. He did not hold back demonstrating his mastery of so many other technical areas.
My suspicion is, if he could, he would have.
But that's not really the point. The point is Paul is amazing at so many things, but in the end, none of his output was in TP, or for that matter in conversational playing. And yet he's still great. Similarly Christian McBride can have to learn the ropes in a new musical style.
Anyways, I've retyped this now three or four times, so please take the time to reread my original a few times before deciding to debate the merits of Paul Chambers literally unheard of thump position skills. Since he is but one example of many possible, I can easily drop it, and my point stands. But no one has a recording of him playing up there and so its all moot. No one can objectively prove the point, and I don't think we can infer thumb position chops at that point in time, since so few had them.
The artist creates the art. Rarely can he explain how. Critics explain how. We need those who can explain how to teach. In the end, most of us are part artist and part critic.
My suspicion is, if he could, he would have.
But that's not really the point. The point is Paul is amazing at so many things, but in the end, none of his output was in TP, or for that matter in conversational playing. And yet he's still great. Similarly Christian McBride can have to learn the ropes in a new musical style.
Anyways, I've retyped this now three or four times, so please take the time to reread my original a few times before deciding to debate the merits of Paul Chambers literally unheard of thump position skills. Since he is but one example of many possible, I can easily drop it, and my point stands. But no one has a recording of him playing up there and so its all moot. No one can objectively prove the point, and I don't think we can infer thumb position chops at that point in time, since so few had them.
The artist creates the art. Rarely can he explain how. Critics explain how. We need those who can explain how to teach. In the end, most of us are part artist and part critic.
Chris,
Unless I'm missing something, you have completely misread Shipp's above "quoted" sentence. You've changed it from first person to third, and made Keith its subject. In the original sentence Shipps is the subject. He is speaking of himself in a tongue-in-cheek, self-deprecating manner. It is a humorous caveat.
As for Jarrett's singing. He's in good company. Garner, Peterson, even Glen Gould did it. too. I don't like theirs either, but it wouldn't stop me from buying their records or going to their concerts as one of the posts below rudely suggested. BTW, I greatly admire KJ and his trio.
Also, might as well finish this, KJ got his singing, standing up and writhing actions by emulating his first and most important mentor/role model the great Johnny Coates. Even before he was old enough to drink, he was allowed to get into The Deerhead jazz bar in the Poconos to hear his hero, often, I was told by the then owner, lying on the rug, under the piano in rapt attention.
I don't have any instruments where I am right now, I'll take your word for it since I can't check for sure. It sure sounds like he's up there. Thank you for citing recordings.
Craig, what's the hang up on TP? If you read the history you know that Mingus (as a young and coming up bassist) used to insist on transposing written lines 8va to show off..until it almost got him knifed by the trombone player. PC played the notes he did where he thought they belonged, where he heard them, you seem to have a problem with his choices. Possibly you feel that if you had been there, you could of done it better? Do you really think you could of cut it in Miles' band, swung your ass off with Wynton, Philly Joe, Jimmy, Trane", ect?
