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Double Bass Criticizing millionaires
- Thread starter damonsmith
- Start date
I don't know that Paul Chambers couldn't play in thumb position, but I would agree that there's not alot of examples of him doing so. Not that I know of, at any rate.
I am not sure if TP is the measure! In these situations it is complicated by the person question not actually sucking.
It is matter of whether they are worth that position. To me it is a question of resources.
In terms of budget, for the price of one Jarrett show, you could probably put on a Paul Bley trio, a Cecil Taylor solo and a Bobo Stenson trio (mix and match your own favorites!).
I don't think he is worth that!
It is matter of whether they are worth that position. To me it is a question of resources.
In terms of budget, for the price of one Jarrett show, you could probably put on a Paul Bley trio, a Cecil Taylor solo and a Bobo Stenson trio (mix and match your own favorites!).
I don't think he is worth that!
My measure of if someone can play in TP is examples of them playing in TP. Since I cannot think of an example of Paul doing anything in TP for an extended period of time or truthfully any period of time, I have no reason to believe he can. And look at my influences. PC is the first guy listed that's not a personal teacher. Clearly I don't care if PC can play in thumb position. But if you were trying to learn to play in TP, I would recommend another player. If you wanted brilliant arco solos, brilliant bebop language, brilliant walking, great compositions, sensitive accompaniment, and in my mind the ideal bass player, I'd recommend PC.
Just cause a guy is great in one thing doesn't mean he is in all things. Gary Peacock's amazing, but I don't know that he can slap the upright very well. Maybe he can, but I have yet to hear him do it.
Just cause a guy is great in one thing doesn't mean he is in all things. Gary Peacock's amazing, but I don't know that he can slap the upright very well. Maybe he can, but I have yet to hear him do it.
Just about every conversation with male work colleagues over a few drinks, starts off criticising football (soccer to some) players who are at an athletic level that we could only dream of and certainly never attain!
If you restricted guys to talking about things they could actually do - you would have some very quiet bars/pubs/ sports clubs!!
PC in TP:
http://www.amazon.com/Bass-Top-Paul...&qid=1375700962&sr=8-2&keywords=paul+chambers
Back on topic, theres nothing wrong with criticizing the people at the top, if you have valid points to make and can lend some credibility to your argument. I do think Shipp was a little harsh in his skewering of Jarrett. He says that Jarrett does not have a "specific language system" and yet hes one the musicians I can pick out almost instantly on any recording (and not just because of the vocals.)
http://www.amazon.com/Bass-Top-Paul...&qid=1375700962&sr=8-2&keywords=paul+chambers
Back on topic, theres nothing wrong with criticizing the people at the top, if you have valid points to make and can lend some credibility to your argument. I do think Shipp was a little harsh in his skewering of Jarrett. He says that Jarrett does not have a "specific language system" and yet hes one the musicians I can pick out almost instantly on any recording (and not just because of the vocals.)
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- Sep 4, 2010
- 3,304
- 2,730
- Disclosures
- Endorsing: Martin Keith Guitars
It is one of the mysteries of the marketplace, isn't it? I don't think in strict terms that he's worth it either - However the Cologne concerts, a tiny piece of his huge output, happened to sell 6 million copies and I suppose keep ECM afloat to this day, enabling ECM to bring out all those records by fantastic musicians nobody heard of that sold a few hundred.
The man is a undisputedly a legend, so even if he nowadays he routinely insults his audience and sounding rather flat (see the latest reports from Umbria Invalid Link Removed) it is apprently worth it to many people.
From my own fan perspective: many years ago I saw a James Brown show at a festival. The band was mediocre and faceless (let's be kind and call it "professional"), the background singers were obviously not selected for their vocal skills, which was unfortunate because they did practically all the singing - Mr JB himself only appeared for 10 minutes in the middle of the set, did a few screechy moves and shouts into the mike, and disappeared from the stage before you would have noticed it. Was it a terrible show? Yes!. Was i satisfied? Yes! - I saw JB live, in the flesh! For some reason that means something to me, in the case of JB - and what he actually did seems secondary in those cases.
I guess KJ means something similar to lots of people. That's perfectly fine, as long as we don't need to get defensive about it.
Aaron I own that album. As I hope every bass player does. Just because there's a picture of him holding the basic G harmonic thumb position on the cover doesn't mean he actually really plays up there. I've listened to the album tons of times. I can't think of any instances of extended playing in TP, or control of it on the album.
But since my point was that just because someone is great in one thing doesn't mean they are in another, even if my example is proven wrong, there are millions of other examples that prove the basic point.
But since my point was that just because someone is great in one thing doesn't mean they are in another, even if my example is proven wrong, there are millions of other examples that prove the basic point.
Agreed, and well spoken. His tone is also instantly recognizable in about 3 notes.
He's certainly not "above the law" and has done some things I find to be in pretty poor taste at times... but so did Miles and Bird and countless others. In life, it may be that a person's good deeds can be outweighed by their transgressions, especially if their transgressions are against others and negatively affect their lives. In art - as in sport - icons will be remembered for their iconic moments. This is a double edged sword: who would wish to be judged at every moment against the best moments of their careers? Even in my tiny little fish bowl, I have encountered this catch-22, and the only cure for it is to disregard it entirely and make the best and most honest music possible in the moment being lived. I personally wouldn't wish fame on my worst enemy, since infamy is part of the deal with every misstep. On the other hand, respect of one's peers is a good thing. I'm not sure if it's possible to have one without at least a trace of the other.
That said, I have no use for iconoclasts. It is such a copout to waste energy hurling stones at someone else's glass house; better to spend that energy tending your own, and in the process, forging it out of stronger mettle.
@Craig: There is an ocean of difference between "can't" and someone who is a master or an innovator at a subject. To say that PC can't play TP is evidently false. To say that he's not an innovator using TP is plausible. Be careful of the words you use.
Anyways, $60K for a gig is just a testament to KJ's business acumen. Hey, if he act like an ******* on stage and still rake it in just proves his "commercial" success. Things like that are not always about art - you also have to know how to sell yourself or your "product". He also knows how to connect his "product" to his audience, otherwise they wouldn't be paying all that money to see him perform. I agree with the point that Jarrett indeed has his own language or style. That left hand ostinato type thing he does is pretty unmistakable. The problem with those other acts that Damon mentions that could be afforded: they're good musicians too but obviously they don't neccessarily deliver what KJ does. I don't connect with Cecil Taylor's (or anyone else you listed) stuff like I do with Jarrett. It doesn't speak to me.
It's like comparing Jiro's sushi vs. someone of lesser quality. Yes, you will blow through $800 in about 30 minutes but the true value of the that experience is up to the diner. I'm sure it's blissful experience but I don't expect a hick with zero taste for sushi is going to find it the same way. Same goes for wine, fine art, or just about anything else high priced. A Lambo is still just a friggin car.
My personal problem with KJ is getting over his vocalizations and hearing the good stuff he's playing that gets buried underneath it sometimes.
Of course Shipp does admit his bias. I suppose you can take him at his word: he's just another ******* musician. It just sounds like he's whining that KJ is raking in the dough by playing **** Shipp doesn't like. As if KJ is breaking his paradigm of how he sees jazz piano and is complaining about it.
I don't like Justin Bieber either but I'm ok with it that someone else finds value in it to the tune of millions. - reluctantly.
Anyways, $60K for a gig is just a testament to KJ's business acumen. Hey, if he act like an ******* on stage and still rake it in just proves his "commercial" success. Things like that are not always about art - you also have to know how to sell yourself or your "product". He also knows how to connect his "product" to his audience, otherwise they wouldn't be paying all that money to see him perform. I agree with the point that Jarrett indeed has his own language or style. That left hand ostinato type thing he does is pretty unmistakable. The problem with those other acts that Damon mentions that could be afforded: they're good musicians too but obviously they don't neccessarily deliver what KJ does. I don't connect with Cecil Taylor's (or anyone else you listed) stuff like I do with Jarrett. It doesn't speak to me.
It's like comparing Jiro's sushi vs. someone of lesser quality. Yes, you will blow through $800 in about 30 minutes but the true value of the that experience is up to the diner. I'm sure it's blissful experience but I don't expect a hick with zero taste for sushi is going to find it the same way. Same goes for wine, fine art, or just about anything else high priced. A Lambo is still just a friggin car.
My personal problem with KJ is getting over his vocalizations and hearing the good stuff he's playing that gets buried underneath it sometimes.
Of course Shipp does admit his bias. I suppose you can take him at his word: he's just another ******* musician. It just sounds like he's whining that KJ is raking in the dough by playing **** Shipp doesn't like. As if KJ is breaking his paradigm of how he sees jazz piano and is complaining about it.
I don't like Justin Bieber either but I'm ok with it that someone else finds value in it to the tune of millions. - reluctantly.
Hdiddy, unless you are just intentionally missreading my posts I cannot help you. Numerous times I have stated that Paul Chambers is an incredible, even the ideal bass player. In the other thread referring to Christian I made it clear that he could learn something he wasn't a master of. When I say can't I mean in this moment right now. Not in a never ever sort of way. I expected you to be able to read the context well enough to understand that, since I gave plenty of examples. But for all intents and purposes PC can't be a good slap BG player either. A) because he doesn't know how to at the moment, and so in the moment he can't be good at it, short of divine revelation. B) he's dead, so in his case his development of skills is as far as its gonna go.
He can be an innovator and still not able to do something... That should be absolutely clear. He's an innovator in jazz bass, but he probably can't do quantum physics.
Does that mean he can't learn? Of course not.
But the whole interest is seeing a master really being pushed to learn. Seeing someone who we all look up to assimilate a new subject or technique or whatever. What's so frustrating about that? Why is that insulting?
Trying to criticize my use of language when you aren't bothering to even try to look at the context or give any grace is sad. Also, failing to look at your musical heroes fairly denies them the chance to really shine, and does not allow their true contributions to really shine through.
The only person who can't in a for all time sense learn to play thumb position is someone without thumbs... But in the immediate moment, when I say PC isn't a master of the thumb position, I mean that for all we know, he never demonstrated any significant capability in the area. Does that mean he couldn't learn? No.
He can be an innovator and still not able to do something... That should be absolutely clear. He's an innovator in jazz bass, but he probably can't do quantum physics.
Does that mean he can't learn? Of course not.
But the whole interest is seeing a master really being pushed to learn. Seeing someone who we all look up to assimilate a new subject or technique or whatever. What's so frustrating about that? Why is that insulting?
Trying to criticize my use of language when you aren't bothering to even try to look at the context or give any grace is sad. Also, failing to look at your musical heroes fairly denies them the chance to really shine, and does not allow their true contributions to really shine through.
The only person who can't in a for all time sense learn to play thumb position is someone without thumbs... But in the immediate moment, when I say PC isn't a master of the thumb position, I mean that for all we know, he never demonstrated any significant capability in the area. Does that mean he couldn't learn? No.
I'm pretty sure the ocean of difference between can't and being a master of something is that they are practically unrelated categories all together. Being a master of something implies a certain adeptness at doing something. Can't means one isn't able to do something. The only paradox would be if I said Paul chambers is a innovator of jazz bass that can't innovate in the field of jazz bass. Saying Paul Chambers is an innovator of jazz bass who can't (as in right now, not as in can't learn) or doesn't have mastery of tp is totally plausible. There's no way to measure human potential so I try not to base my influences on people's potential accomplishments. Otherwise we'd all be listing unborn fictional people as our major influences, since they have more potential then anyone who's been limited by the decisions they've made since birth.
Agreed Chris and very well said.
Just to add another perspective. I've always been fascinated by people who don't actually do something well, critique others who are very accomplished. Guess it's part of our culture but it's sociologically twisted.
My own personal experience is that it takes an amazing (skill set) that most people can't even imagine which enables certain individuals to perform at a high level in a public setting when it actually matters. I've heard so many mediocre players say that they could have played what (your favorite players name here) played on such and such a recording. Typically, nothing could be further from the truth. Firstly, these so-called critics didn't create the musical part and they were not present, interacting with the other musicians when the music was being performed. In addition,
there is an amazing amount of pressure to perform at a very high level when lots of money is on the line and/or the red (recording) light goes on. Prior to Pro-Tools. Most people fail, they crumble and/or become incredibly self-concious and therefore stiff or robotic in their playing. However, these same guys (critics/musicians), feel free to share their opinions with the rest of us. Rhetorical question: Why would I care about these opinions?
I always love watching a sporting event where the commentator has actually played the sport at a high level. At least I know that the guy providing insight, has a high level of understanding regarding what the current competitors are going through. The same can be said about art. For example, if Yo Yo Ma is talking about a classical performance, his deep and valuable expertise lends credence to his critique. I don't necessarily have to agree but he is indeed an expert.
These rants by others who are not well established or well regarded in their field are just that, snippy little rants. It's fan talk, foddor for bar conversations. When faced with this kind of trivial minutiae, I always try to remember that opinions are like rear ends, everyone has one and most do not smell like roses.
I agree that throwing stones is a waste of energy. But observing a master, say Christian McBride (who is clearly very good at assimilating information and making use of what he has in an efficient manner) take on something new can be extremely informative. That's where this whole mess started. I'm not sure why Shipp really wrote the article on Keith. I can see where he's coming from sort of, but I don't know that it needed to be said.
So I agree its a waste to throw stones at people out of jealousy. But at the same time, sometimes its not throwing stones. And this whole series of threads didn't start out of jealousy ( I don't think.) As far as KJ goes, I listen to the man for never more than a day in a row. He's great but eh. I don't feel any need to rip him. Breaking apart what he does and doesn't do might be useful to a student though. And ultimately rejecting something (at least in part) after absorbing it isn't always a bad thing.
So I agree its a waste to throw stones at people out of jealousy. But at the same time, sometimes its not throwing stones. And this whole series of threads didn't start out of jealousy ( I don't think.) As far as KJ goes, I listen to the man for never more than a day in a row. He's great but eh. I don't feel any need to rip him. Breaking apart what he does and doesn't do might be useful to a student though. And ultimately rejecting something (at least in part) after absorbing it isn't always a bad thing.
- Sep 4, 2010
- 3,304
- 2,730
- Disclosures
- Endorsing: Martin Keith Guitars
I find the exact opposite with the sports coverage I watch - often those who played sports at a high level had to concentrate so much on repetitive actions, that they actually became very dull people who cannot bring the thing to life for anybody else.
Whereas there are many professional sports commentators who can really involve those listening/watching through their enthusiasm and great memory for interesting facts. Despite or maybe because of the fact that they didn't have successful careers in that sport. So, maybe their enthusiasm for commentating is heightened and they had time to become more rounded individuals, who could relate more to "ordinary" people?
So for example - David Beckham could take a great free kick, but when interviewed, is the dullest person imaginable!
PC's fine technique (LH and bowing) lead me to believe he was well trained, which leads me to think he probably explored thumb position in his practice. My guess is that he chose not to use it (or was told not to "go up there" by Miles, or others) for musical reasons. Gut strings are not the best performers in TP either, although I'm sure there are plenty of examples contradicting that thought
He's trained classically and his Wikipedia bio says so. I'm reading Ron Carters bio book right now and they mention how PC preceded him at Cass Tech where there was no jazz taught or played - only classical. I think it's very likely that he did have chops and playing in TP was generally not called for until LaFaro decided to break the mold.
Is he a good example of Jazz TP? Definitely not, unless some records can be dug up. Would be cool if there were such but I'm also guessing it wasn't what he was hearing jazz wise. Otherwise Miles might've let him do it or he would've done it more on Bass On Top.
Is he a good example of Jazz TP? Definitely not, unless some records can be dug up. Would be cool if there were such but I'm also guessing it wasn't what he was hearing jazz wise. Otherwise Miles might've let him do it or he would've done it more on Bass On Top.
