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Cutting through - Amp EQ, Cab, or Pickups?

BuiltToSpill17

BuiltToSpill17

Oct 17, 2009
151
59
Baltimore, MD
#1
I've been playing with my band for a few months now and I've gone through a few bass changes as we've been practicing together. I've finally found a bass (Lakland Skyline Darryl Jones 4) that has a great sound, plays well, and looks awesome.

Today I noticed that with both of our guitarists, drums, vocals, and myself that I was having some major issues hearing myself cutting through the mix. I toyed with boosting the mids (and moving the shelving points), as well as increasing the gain, but to no avail. Obviously there's the master vol, but things tend to get a little boomy past where it's at now (12 o'clock). I was standing about 15 feet away from my amp and just felt like the bass didn't cut at all where I wanted it to.

I switched over to my EBMM Stingray and had no problems hearing myself (and it sounded great to boot). Since I love the Lakland's playability and weight (REALLY light compare to the Ray), I'm wondering if either it needs to be EQ'd drastically different from the Stingray, or new pickups might help. I swapped the pickups in my Aerodyne to DiMarzio DP126's and they ATE through the mix. While I could easily play that bass, I like the Lakland much more.

We're playing rock (standard tuning), and it's myself and two guitarists, both with 2x12's running 30-40w tube heads.

I am running a TC Electronic RH 450 into a Aguilar GS212 4 Ohm cab.

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance,

Chris
 
#2
new pickups might help, but you should be able to get it cooking in a mix as is anyway. 800 hz or thereabouts is a good freq to boost if you can't hear yourself. hard to get a fix on what's wrong without being there, though. just experiment and see.
 
#3
JimmyM said:
new pickups might help, but you should be able to get it cooking in a mix as is anyway. 800 hz or thereabouts is a good freq to boost if you can't hear yourself. hard to get a fix on what's wrong without being there, though. just experiment and see.
Click to expand...

What he said! 800 hz is a great place to start, and move in either direction from there if that doesn't do it for you.
 
#5

Hz, not Mhz! :D

You might also give a listen to your band mates when they’re playing solo – guitars including vocals. If they sound “bass heavy” or “boomy,” then the problem is that you’re competing with all the bass they’re generating. I’m sure they all like that “fat” tone, but you can’t EQ the individual instruments and vocals in a full band the same way you would if they were playing all alone. Basically they all need to limit their lows.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


Pedulla Club #45
 
#6
Thanks Wayne, this is a point I've brought up a few times , but it falls on "deaf" ears, pun fully intended.

I'll see what I can do about it next practice since I know one of the guitarists is "plug-in and play" and the other is a little more particular about the way things sound in the mix :)
 
#7
these days i play with most of my EQ on flat settings and i dont have trouble being heard or being too muddy, etc as long as the amp is loud enough for the type of music.
i find the most important factor is how loud the other band members are playing.

i usually have a slight boost at around 40Hz bass and 4kHz treble as i believe these are the sweet spots for sitting nicely in a mix.
 
#9
I shudder any time I see "cut through the mix". If I'm cutting through the mix, and guitars are cutting through the mix, and vocals are cutting through, and the keys are cutting through, and the drums are cutting through (and we know the cymbals are cutting through everything), then THERE AIN'T NO FREAKIN' MIX!!!!!

I understand about being present in the mix, but that's generally an issue of the whole band working to sound good together instead of being focused on how they sound soloed. You've got to get everyone to work so you sound like a band instead of five people playing at the same time. EVERYONE probably has to alter what they're hearing in their head as their "ideal" sound to get to a sound that works great for the whole operation. Duck Dunn has said he's always hated how his bass sounded in the studio. Listen to the soloed Jamerson tracks and it's a lot different than the usual sound people dial up to emulate his sound.

So, you'll have to work with what you can in the band you're in. Work on getting the lows out of the guitar amps, kill any instruments in the vocal monitors (for me, if the monitors aren't bi-amped and we don't have a separate mix for everyone, then the only thing that should be in monitors is vocals and acoustic instruments- NOT DRUMS), and turn the crap down. Then work on how things sound when you play together. The "silly smile" ruins everything so go with the "functional frown", no matter how bad it sounds when you're playing all by yourself. Mike Watt says the same thing- don't bogart the mids!

If you can't sublimate "your sound" to have a band sound, then you're probably a guitarist at heart :D Bass is ALL about sublimating yourself for the SONG and the BAND. And the best bands are all about that too.

John
 
#11
JTE said:
I understand about being present in the mix, but that's generally an issue of the whole band working to sound good together instead of being focused on how they sound soloed. You've got to get everyone to work so you sound like a band instead of five people playing at the same time. EVERYONE probably has to alter what they're hearing in their head as their "ideal" sound to get to a sound that works great for the whole operation. Duck Dunn has said he's always hated how his bass sounded in the studio. Listen to the soloed Jamerson tracks and it's a lot different than the usual sound people dial up to emulate his sound.
So, you'll have to work with what you can in the band you're in.
Click to expand...

Good point. I think it's been a tough sell for people who normally practice by themselves then get together once-twice a week to really want to take time out for balancing the live mix during practice when we're working on new material constantly.

Since it's easier for me to make suggestions like this with something in mind, what do you all suggest I recommend to the guitarists to help balance things out? Just cutting bass and mids some?

I'm all about having a balanced sound (and not 'cutting through' so much as complimenting), but it's not easy to convince people to take the time to do this unless I can offer up a starting point and recommendations. Thanks much!
 
#12

A big +1 to what JTE said! Radiohead, maybe you should forward this thread to your band mates.

radiohead860 said:
Thanks Wayne, this is a point I've brought up a few times , but it falls on "deaf" ears, pun fully intended.

I'll see what I can do about it next practice since I know one of the guitarists is "plug-in and play" and the other is a little more particular about the way things sound in the mix :)
Click to expand...
Funny story about how even one poorly EQ’d instrument can ruin the mix: The guitar player in my band loves a dark, bassy sound (shoot, even he has trouble cutting through the mix!). All the time our drummer complains during practices, “I can’t hear the bass!”

This past summer the guitar player was out of town for several weeks (our keyboard player “carried the mail” in his absence).

Well - the first week the guitar player was back, the drummer’s piping up with, “Can’t hear the bass!” It dawned on me then that he had not said that even once the whole time the guitar player was out!
laugh.gif


Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


Pedulla Club #45

 
#13

radiohead860 said:
Since it's easier for me to make suggestions like this with something in mind, what do you all suggest I recommend to the guitarists to help balance things out? Just cutting bass and mids some?
Click to expand...
Primarily the bass, maybe the low-mids, if those are overpowering.

You know how you can “feel” your bass as well as hear it? Well – if you can “feel” the guitars and male vocals’ low end, then they have too much bass.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


Pedulla Club #45

 
#14
WayneP said:

A big +1 to what JTE said! Radiohead, maybe you should forward this thread to your band mates.


Funny story about how even one poorly EQ’d instrument can ruin the mix: The guitar player in my band loves a dark, bassy sound (shoot, even he has trouble cutting through the mix!). All the time our drummer complains during practices, “I can’t hear the bass!”

This past summer the guitar player was out of town for several weeks (our keyboard player “carried the mail” in his absence).

Well - the first week the guitar player was back, the drummer’s piping up with, “Can’t hear the bass!” It dawned on me then that he had not said that even once the whole time the guitar player was out!
laugh.gif


Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


Pedulla Club #45
Click to expand...


Good story to tell! It's definitely only one of the guitarists that I think is the primary culprit; he loves that same sound as well. It sounds GREAT by itself, but in the mix I had a feeling it completely tramples on me (he complained a few weeks back that I was trampling on him!

I think forwarding this thread might hurt some feelings, so I'll just be as nice as I can and say that we should work on our live mix sound after we go to record this weekend. I'm sure the recording experience will result in some EQ'ing lessons that I can cite when we have the live mix sound session.

The nice thing about my amp is that when there are parts where the bass needs to be present (drum+bass parts), I can program those EQ settings to one of the Memory presets, and just switch between the "saturated" mix sound and the solo sounds.

Thanks for the suggestions guys, this has helped me worry less about my setup and want to learn more about focusing on the mix sound itself. I don't mind taking up the role as "keeper of the mix sound" even if it might ultimately hurt some feelings, it just might take a slow rollout for people to accept some changes here and there.
 
#15

radiohead860 said:
Good story to tell! It's definitely only one of the guitarists that I think is the primary culprit; he loves that same sound as well. It sounds GREAT by itself, but in the mix I had a feeling it completely tramples on me (he complained a few weeks back that I was trampling on him!
Click to expand...
Well duh, of course you were! You were putting out even more bass than he was!
rofl.gif


I think forwarding this thread might hurt some feelings,
Click to expand...
Yeah, I guess that’s true. Poke around here on the Live Sound Forum and you’ll find other threads on this same topic that say essentially the same thing as what you’ve seen here – maybe showing them one of those would do the trick, since you (and they) would be “out of it.”

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


Pedulla Club #45

 
#16
WayneP said:

Yeah, I guess that’s true. Poke around here on the Live Sound Forum and you’ll find other threads on this same topic that say essentially the same thing as what you’ve seen here – maybe showing them one of those would do the trick, since you (and they) would be “out of it.”

Pedulla Club #45
Click to expand...

Haha, good point. I think I'll do that after this weekend :D I just found some good examples of individual tracks by themselves from a mix (if you guys know of any others floating around on the internet that are free to check out, please let me know):

From the Canadian math-core/metal band, Protest The Hero:

Mixed Track (very loud and metal, just as a caution for those folks who aren't into that kind of music)
 
#17
radiohead860 said:
I just found some good examples of individual tracks by themselves from a mix (if you guys know of any others floating around on the internet that are free to check out, please let me know):

From the Canadian math-core/metal band, Protest The Hero
Click to expand...
wow! i'm not into that stuff at all, but this is textbook!

the guitars are crunchy but have no rumble at all, the drums are really dry, and while the kick has some of that boosted "click" thing going on, it's not overbearing (it still sounds like a drum).

and the bass has that middy, burpy growl which yeah, can be annoying by itself.

combined it sounds like a wall of metal, but with an actual place for the bass guitar.
 
#19
walterw said:
you question may contain its own answer, i think. time for some new dimarzios?
Click to expand...

Ha, yes... I am still considering some DiMarzio's for the DJ4. The stock pickups are very buzzy, which isn't too much of a problem to be honest, but they do feel like they lack the meat that the DiMarzio's in the Aerodyne have.

I'm going to see how things sound in the mix in the next few practices/recording sessions before I commit to new pickups though :)
 
#20
I can't dial in a mix-cutting setting on a J bass to save my life. I'm sure it's doable, but I've never been happy with the way any J bass I've owned has sat in a mix. I've tried all sorts of eq settings on different amps, and none of them have really left me satisfied.

I would say that the right cab would help the most IMO. There may be some kind of pickups out there too that will help as well, although I don't see pickups doing as much as a good, focused cab will.
 

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