Cutting through

[TeaTime]

A quality cabinet of whatever configuration, driven by a matched quality head of sufficient power, set with proper eq would seem to be the solution. Buy quality, and learn how to adjust it to suit whatever venue.

GK 1x12, and/or 2x12, Mesa 15's, Genzler 10s. I can make any of them work a venue.

I've been to a few open mics recently to watch students stepping out. I wouldn't even want my bass coming through the PAs used, and I wouldn't want the guys who own them messing with my tone. Half deaf guitar player running the mix from the stage is rarely good news for the bass.

 

[ValerieK]

A quality cabinet of whatever configuration, driven by a matched quality head of sufficient power, set with proper eq would seem to be the solution. Buy quality, and learn how to adjust it to suit whatever venue.

GK 1x12, and/or 2x12, Mesa 15's, Genzler 10s. I can make any of them work a venue.

I've been to a few open mics recently to watch students stepping out. I wouldn't even want my bass coming through the PAs used, and I wouldn't want the guys who own them messing with my tone. Half deaf guitar player running the mix from the stage is rarely good news for the bass.

My problem is that I am a half deaf guitar player running sound from the stage... while I play bass and attempt to sing some.

Everything is up to me and I just plain don't know what I'm doing or how to learn.

We're not all amazing life-long pros who know everything. Mentorship doesn't seem to be a thing unless you're a child, sadly.

 

[mambo4]

I've carried a good sized room with 1x12.

Some speakers may "cut through" better than others
But won't be primarily because of certain numbers of certain cone diameters
At least not just that

 

[dbsfgyd1]

I don’t play professionally,I attend a few different open mics…and listen a lot ,,take note of what amp and cab configurations are used.and basses,and strings . At these open mics,,the bass is not running through the PA..which I find irritating,,but I guess the PA system that is brought by whomever is running the jam is not capable? At least this is what has been suggested to me. Anyway,it seems to me that a 4x10 cab seems to be heard much better than other cabinets. And I have heard guys running single 15’s,,2x10’s,and even a combo one 15 and a 2x10… so does this make sense to anyone here?

Of the the things you listed, which one that do or not make sense? I

Item #1: FOH or not.

Be prepared for both. The owner of the PA rules. Generally I would much rather not play FOH support with musicians that know how to play “ in concert”. That said, my experience with band jams is most don’t. Secondly, the bigger the musical entity, and or the room, the more you need FOH to get a good mix. Doing without is possible, but it’s going to be a challenge.

Item # Cabs

Cab design (speaker(s) and the “box” are designed to work as a single unit, and some cabs are more efficient than other. For example a poorly efficient 4 ten cab may produce less decibels than a very efficient 210 cab. Some cabs project better than others. So you can’t just go by speaker size and quantity on how it will play on stage.

 

[pbass2]

As has been said before, a 4x10 might be loud (enough) but many 4x10s also sound scooped by their nature. You will typically get much better results with mid-forward speakers with not too much low end. Many 15s are actually very middy and will work well, and I have consistently been getting my best live sounds with a humble GK MB212 combo. Not a single issue hearing myself while being loud enough for most gigs.

I've been playing bass pro for 30+ years and came to the conclusion that in any situation--with or without PA support, I simply don't like 4x10s. Gimme 12"s any day, especially either a 2x12 or a 2 1x12s stacked. The clarity and focus is always much better IME. And I always preach "sit in the mix" vs. "cut through" and still, the 12"s can do both of those things better than the 4x10s IMO.

 

[Wasnex]

I don’t play professionally,I attend a few different open mics…and listen a lot ,,take note of what amp and cab configurations are used.and basses,and strings . At these open mics,,the bass is not running through the PA..which I find irritating,,but I guess the PA system that is brought by whomever is running the jam is not capable? At least this is what has been suggested to me. Anyway,it seems to me that a 4x10 cab seems to be heard much better than other cabinets. And I have heard guys running single 15’s,,2x10’s,and even a combo one 15 and a 2x10… so does this make sense to anyone here?

Designer intent and quality of the gear is more of a factor than the size and number of drivers. To some degree, the way a player adjusts the EQ tends to be more of a factor than the gear. However, probably the biggest factor is room acoustics.

IME, elevating a cab tends to helps with clarity and focus at the expense of fat lows. I usually elevated the bottom of my cab to about waist level. I also tilted it back so the front of the cab aimed at my head.

My last touring rig included an Eden D210XLT and D410XLT. The vast majority of the time, I only used the 210 and it had plenty of volume for my needs. Not a huge difference in tone and clarity between just the 210 and the 410 or both cabs (610). Certainly not enough of a difference to make it worth the extra effort. What the bigger options provided was mostly additional headroom, which I typically did not need.

 

[S-Bigbottom]

I can make anything sound good by turning some knobs.

Well, anything that is capable in the setting... A ten watt Gorilla starter pack amp will need a bit more finessing than what is onboard, but can work in some settings.

 

[pbass2]

I can make anything sound good by turning some knobs.

Well, anything that is capable in the setting... A ten watt Gorilla starter pack amp will need a bit more finessing than what is onboard, but can work in some settings.

Dude, this is TB - all you need for that amp is a HPF and a Noble.

 

[Cleezmo]

I've found that the 'cutting through' or being heard, or however you want to describe, to be much more dependent on how the player has their rig set up than a specific amp or cab combination. I currenty run a 2x12 and have no problem being heard either in my 3-piece band or the monthly jam session I do with keys, horns, guitars, etc.

Side note, I guess I'm also potentially in the minority in the sense that I don't define 'cutting through the mix' as 'the only thing you hear is my bass', which I feel like that term gets that vibe sometimes here on TB. I equate 'cutting through' with being heard and not lost or buried. So, to me, 'sitting in the mix' and 'cutting through the mix' are kind of the same thing, they are the opposite of being buried in the mix and not being heard. If I'm too loud or 'cutting through' too much, then I'd expect our BL or FOH (depending on the gig) to tell me to pull back a bit and I'll do so without ego or reservation. But I don't apologize for wanting to hear myself and wanting the audience to hear what I'm doing, that's why I put all the practice work in.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

1. Bands in smaller venues often don't have PA support.
2. People running open mics often aren't paid much, certainly not enough for a pro level PA.

Heh. A couple weeks ago my band did a gig and the next day we got an email that would have been a page and a half long if printed on what was wrong with our sound. Dude, you went to a bar in a building that was a former old bank, high ceilings and brick walls and expected a Red Rocks concert. It's a shame, everyone else had a good time. Are there things we could improve with the PA? Sure, but those are going to cost more than the band wants to invest in the gear at this time. But thought the email critique was out of touch with bar band realities.

 

[buldog5151bass]

Heh. A couple weeks ago my band did a gig and the next day we got an email that would have been a page and a half long if printed on what was wrong with our sound. Dude, you went to a bar in a building that was a former old bank, high ceilings and brick walls and expected a Red Rocks concert. It's a shame, everyone else had a good time. Are there things we could improve with the PA? Sure, but those are going to cost more than the band wants to invest in the gear at this time. But thought the email critique was out of touch with bar band realities.

Invite the guy to your next gig to run sound.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Invite the guy to your next gig to run sound.

I think that was what he was expecting us to do. But audition by insult rarely works.

 

[Pbasslovernyc]

I've found that the 'cutting through' or being heard, or however you want to describe, to be much more dependent on how the player has their rig set up than a specific amp or cab combination. I currenty run a 2x12 and have no problem being heard either in my 3-piece band or the monthly jam session I do with keys, horns, guitars, etc.

Side note, I guess I'm also potentially in the minority in the sense that I don't define 'cutting through the mix' as 'the only thing you hear is my bass', which I feel like that term gets that vibe sometimes here on TB. I equate 'cutting through' with being heard and not lost or buried. So, to me, 'sitting in the mix' and 'cutting through the mix' are kind of the same thing, they are the opposite of being buried in the mix and not being heard. If I'm too loud or 'cutting through' too much, then I'd expect our BL or FOH (depending on the gig) to tell me to pull back a bit and I'll do so without ego or reservation. But I don't apologize for wanting to hear myself and wanting the audience to hear what I'm doing, that's why I put all the practice

 

[Pbasslovernyc]

I do not define it that way..I am saying that bass tends to be difficult to hear,even though it’s plenty loud.

 

[Pbasslovernyc]

Of the the things you listed, which one that do or not make sense? I

Item #1: FOH or not.

Be prepared for both. The owner of the PA rules. Generally I would much rather not play FOH support with musicians that know how to play “ in concert”. That said, my experience with band jams is most don’t. Secondly, the bigger the musical entity, and or the room, the more you need FOH to get a good mix. Doing without is possible, but it’s going to be a challenge.

Item # Cabs

Cab design (speaker(s) and the “box” are designed to work as a single unit, and some cabs are more efficient than other. For example a poorly efficient 4 ten cab may produce less decibels than a very efficient 210 cab. Some cabs project better than others. So you can’t just go by speaker size and quantity on how it will play on stage.

Since you have mentioned it…let’s talk a bit about what cabs are highly efficient…

 

[hasbeen]

I understand that many bassist want to be heard and I'm not preaching "feel" over "hear".

IME, I think one of the best "heard" basses are the EBMM Stingrays.

But I gotta end with "bottom". As a child, it was that bottom and feel sound of the bass that made me want to learn how to play it.

"To each his/her own."

Yeah....the Stingray is a great bass to be "heard". When I was focusing on guitar in the 70's and bought my first bass, it was a 1978 Stingray, which I bought new. I wish I still had it.

 

[brianrost]

Pbasslovernyc,

You are correct that at many smaller gigs nothing goes through the PA but vocals and acoustic instruments. As much as people here talk about going throught the PA…some to the point where they use no amp at all…there are still many gigs in places where that’s not possible.

Speaker size doesn’t matter as much as the overall cab design. I've played through muddy 4x10s and bright 1-15s. I started using 1-12” cabs in the late 90s and none of them sounded the same…I had an EVM12 loaded cab built to EV design specs, an Epifani T112, a Genz Benz, and a Bergantino HT112. As far as “cutting through” the Berg was the best, period. The EV was punchy and mid focused but not as open in the highs, the Epifani was scooped to provide a pillowy low end and the GB just sounded muffled. All but the EV had tweeters which I always kept turned off.

Other things contribute as much as the speakers to the bass working well in the mix:

1. the instrument
2. the strings
3. the player’s technique
4. the player’s EQ choices

 

[Cleezmo]

I do not define it that way..I am saying that bass tends to be difficult to hear,even though it’s plenty loud.

Understood, and didn't mean to imply you specifically had that opinion. But in other threads on this topic here on TB sometimes I feel like those of us who use that term positively get a bad rap from others who interpret it as 'I want to hear myself over everything else', when that's not how I/we define it.

IMO/IME, when its plenty loud but not defined, that's an EQ issue. There are also lots of thread here about which frequencies are most effective for fixing those issues, I've found those to be quite informative as well.

 

[FullumMusic]

These

I don’t play professionally,I attend a few different open mics…and listen a lot ,,take note of what amp and cab configurations are used.and basses,and strings . At these open mics,,the bass is not running through the PA..which I find irritating,,but I guess the PA system that is brought by whomever is running the jam is not capable? At least this is what has been suggested to me. Anyway,it seems to me that a 4x10 cab seems to be heard much better than other cabinets. And I have heard guys running single 15’s,,2x10’s,and even a combo one 15 and a 2x10… so does this make sense to anyone here?

I think you're making some spurious correlations observing things that appear to be happening on the surface, but aren't. There's more going on.

These days speaker diameter and cabinet layout (number of speakers) can be designed to sound however the manufacturer wants them to sound. The old rules-of-thumb correlating speaker diameter or cabinet layout to certain tones are no longer relevant.

Same goes for volume. It really depends on power ratings and how much power the amp is putting through the speakers. All other things equal, yes, a 4x10 will push more air than a 2x10. But it's almost never a 1-to-1 comparison, because you have to consider how much power the different cabs can handle, how much the amp is sending, how loud the player has turned up the amp, etc.

And that doesn't even get into how different tones of different strings and basses and eq settings work for different rooms. On top of that, it doesn't consider the other instruments, how they sound, and how their amps or PA channels are set up.

It could be the 4x10 jam has players who don't get into loudness wars; players who know how to play and leave space sonically for each other. It could be that the amp pushing the 4x10 is just more powerful and turned up louder than everyone else, and it would be louder no matter what cab you attach to it.

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I think part of what's tricking your ears is you're looking to see why the bass stands out in a mix and looking at the bass things. But a mix is everything. It's all the instruments, how they're set up tonally, what ranges they're playing in, and the room it's in. Bassists tell other bassists "mids cut through the mix." As an audio engineer, that's not necessarily true. Everyone wants to cut through the mix. If everyone tries to cut through and boost their mids, nobody will cut through the mix. It'll be simultaneously too loud and nobody will be able to hear anything.

What makes instruments cut through the mix is all the other instruments need to be in their own sonic space. Every instrument needs a little bit of the spectrum to really come through, and needs to pull back a little in other areas to let the other instruments shine through. It's the classic "big bedroom tone" vs "actual mix tone." At home people tend to make their instruments sound as big as possible because it's just them. But in a mix, there needs to be space for every other instrument for everyone to be heard and for the mix to sound big.

So when you're hearing the bass better in the mix at certain jams it's a confluence of several things. The bass, the strings, the amp, and cabinet speaker layout is one of the smallest parts of that mix. My guess is the jam with the 4x10 just has a loud bass amp turned up more than the others and you're correlating that with the cabinet, but really it's just the volume knob. Of course, that's my guess. I'd have to actually go and see all the different jams to give you a proper reason why.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Since you have mentioned it…let’s talk a bit about what cabs are highly efficient…

Look up the SPL of perspective cabs ratings and compare. I don’t own any of the current cabs being made, so my experience will not help you much. That said, my Eden D series cabs are rated at 103% efficient. DNA cabs are also very efficient. If you do the math, my Eden D-210- XST when powered with 400 watts can generate up to 127 dBs. My experience with that is it can handle just about any gig with FOH support, and I’ve covered some rooms seating up to 700 people without FOH support.

However not to muddy up the waters, but from what I understand here from the engineers, certain manufacturers may be very (ahem) liberal with their testing methods to provide better specs. So as you go through the winnowing process, just keep that in mind. I can assure you, you will most likely hear the difference in output of an honest 100%+ efficient cab, a pretender, or a cab rated at say 95%

I hope this helps.