Cygnus midi bass pedal conversion project-1

[Flux Jetson]

Holy smolly, that's quite the skillset! I still have not determined what to do about an enclosure unfortunately, and have been considering going to the local military surplus to find a mojolicious enclosure large enough to accommodate the wide array of controls to be mounted to the thing. My only other option is a wooden enclosure, but seeing as I have no real woodworking experience, there will likely be little wood used.

I'm only on lunch at work at the moment, however I will try and type out some more details on my project once I'm home (it will be late though). In short, I took a Casio Pt100 keyboard from the 80's and wired up the hammond pedals to it's lowest register it's capable. This still isn't really low enough for bass, so I'm adding a DCO in order to lower the clock speed and the pitch. I'm also working on a 555 based comparator and voltage divider as an octave down effect. Also looking into an LFO and an ADSR section, but the ADSR may be unlikely due to the constraints of working with an altready integrated synthesizer. There will be patching options for the individual voices and the various extra circuits, so it will be semi-modular in a sense.

That's all for now, gotta get back. Thanks for the interest!

Oh how I love this stuff you're up to! It sounds as though you have a fairly solid grasp and understanding of the very circuits that a tinkering musician needs to possess. You're doing things out of necessity .. making do with little .. it is that situation right there that will come to benefit you later in bucketloads! You're forced to modify and change something simple due to your current position in life ..... that's one of the best ~schools~ there are!

You seem to know more about a lot of this than I do .... cool!!! Keep moving .... you're doing GREAT!!!!

 

[Flux Jetson]

So much for tracking data .. my first set of Hammond pedals just arrived! Pics and details later.

 

[Flux Jetson]

Ok, these are some detail pictures of the Hammond M100 pedalset I'm using for this project. I'm very happy with them so far, very robust and made completely of metal. They're obviously designed to outlive their owners.

Here's the normally open switch contacts of these bass pedals. This condition is as if they are not being played ...

Now step down on the pedal, then the other end of it pivots up, and closes the contacts ....

I'll get into greater details about how to wire up the Cygnus midi retrofit kit to these contacts soon.

Here's another perspective, the contact third from the left is closed, that is to say the pedal has been pressed down.

A few more views of it all ....

The pedal covers are held on with slotted head machine screws. The whole thing is put together very well. However you need to be aware of the very sharp sheared edges, they will bite you!

And as you can see, the bottoms of each pedal are tapered upward so that when you step on them the bottoms don't hit the floor, allowing for the lowest possible mounting location and the most convenient playing height.

Ok, so there's the mechanical pics I said I'd post. I particularly like the way the switch contact array was designed. Clean, simple, cleanable, repairable, reliable, and easily worked with for the purposes of this midi retrofit.

I'm still working out exactly howzit/whatsys I am going to do in the manner of creating and building some sort of enclosure and/or framework for this project.

I've also begun work on another one of these midi bass pedal projects for my wife. It's using a totally different bass pedal setup that came out of a Hammond T-series organ. Here's a link to that project thread ...

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f36/cygnus-midi-bass-pedal-conversion-project-2-her-942438/

More to come soon!

Hasta Lasagne, Mangs.

 

[Flux Jetson]

Progress report:

Ok, I haven't been sitting on my hands with this project, I've just been hyper-busy working at my day job. One thing that is definitely (*notice how there are no letter "A"s in that word?) happening with this setup is that I planned out a setup that permits each foot-key pedal to be used as a midi control AND/OR a momentary switch.

I've come up with a setup that allows any normally open momentary switch to engage or bypass any stompbox or rack mounted FX. Said another way, I can use any of the bass pedal foot-notes to engage or bypass a stompbox or rack FX (or any other circuit for that matter.)

Think of it this way, each bass pedal footnote can be used to engage or bypass an outboard FX circuit, OR be used as a midi note on trigger. Each footnote pedal will have a standard stompbox-style footswitch near/above it with a status indicator LED. Hit the toeswitch (LED on) above any footnote pedal and it's function is changed from midi note trigger to FX engager. Now, stepping on that note and that note only will engage whatever circuit is "looped" by that bass note pedal. The other notes still do their midi-note triggering function (as long as their corresponding LED status lights are ~off~.).

I can put as many or as few of these dual-function setups on as many or as few of the bass pedals as I wish.

To make the FX-engage function operate, I'm using a relay operated bypass circuit that uses a special IC chip that is programmed to latch a 3pdt relay. The relay is wired up just like a standard stompbox footswitch and wired to I/O jacks to be able to bypass or engage any circuit/stompbox/rack device.

So, to summarize:

** Status light OFF = midi note trigger.
** Status light ON = FX engage/bypass.

I can have just three or four of the bass pedals set up as such - OR - I can set up all thirteen bass notes with dual-functionality.

This system will help to eliminate floor clutter. I can use this set of bass pedals as a "true bypass looper set" and/or a midi-note trigger set. This will also eliminate the need for the momentary footswitches that I use to operate various functions on my modular synth. So it eliminates (up to) thirteen floor switches. I can use any note I please to engage a certain fuzzbox, or rack EQ, or switch some function on the modular synth rig, or even use it as a plain old sustain pedal for a piano sound (or any other sound). Anything that requires either a midi-note ~on~, or a momentary switch, or a latching switch (like a stompbox uses) can be taken care of with just this set of bass pedals!

Dang it all! I CAN'T WAIT until I have some more time to get this going! I still haven't been able to ~see~ what it will look like in a mechanical sense just yet .... but that will happen. These tricked-out circuit/switching systems are completely designed and drawn-up on paper. But I have not conjured up the actual chassis/housing in my mind as of yet. I'm a metal worker for the most part so I'm trying to think up a sortof mecha-design that has a sortof robotic look about it. I'm even attempting to incoporate the aircraft braided stainless steel hose and anodized hose fittings into it (as wiring conduits) - y'know like what hotrods use on their engines and such.

Sweated copper tubing stuff has also crossed my mind .....

Anyhow ......

It's coming together, as far as functional design ideas go. As far as chassis design, I have not come up with the ~exact~ thing just yet, only some "look and feel" notions.

Onward ....

 

[twocargar]

Very cool!! Can't wait to see the finished product!

 

[Flux Jetson]

Very cool!! Can't wait to see the finished product!

Haahaa .. yea .. me too! Haahaa!

 

[Flux Jetson]

Ok, I have the basic format and functional layout all drawn up. This set of bass pedals will provide three types of controls:

MODE 1.) PLAYING MIDI NOTES: The CYGNUS midi note setup. Allowing it to send midi-note information with a couple of built in firmware tricks (note hold, and so on).

MODE 2.) SENDING MIDI CONTROL INFO: The Highly Liquid MIDI CPU. This setup allows me to pretty much program what type of midi information is sent by pressing a bass pedal. Such as CC control information, and midi program change info, as well as other stuff. This will be helpful for changing my midi-matrix programs from preset to preset, as well as operating the Phrase Looper in my Line 6 M13 and M9 so that I may use those two devices as ~desktop~ units while still being able to fully operate their 28 second phrase loopers by using this midi-bass pedal setup to do so.

Here's a link the Highly Liquid's MIDI-CPU page ....

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Here's the link to the Highly Liquid Midi-CPU firmware pdf file for deeper information ....

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MODE 3.) ANALOGUE SWITCHING: Plain old analogue momentary footswitches. I can use these pedals as just the simple normally open and/or normally closed momentary footswitches that they are. This function will be useful for operating switched bypass relays and closing contact functions that my modular synth gear works with. The bypass relays will be used for bypassing and engaging analogue rack gear (such as my beloved Rane PE-17 parametric EQ and my APHEX 204 aural exciter). I can operate the bypass relay kits with the bass pedals, which will then bypass or engage rack gear. It makes rack gear into stomp boxes, essentially. You plug the rack stuff's I/O into a looper box that contains the bypass relays. The relays are operated by stepping on a momentary footswitch (such as these bass pedals, or even a common synth/keyboard "sustain pedal".).

So I'll be able to bypass/engage my rack stuff like stomp boxes! Step on the C pedal and the EQ is on line, step on the F# and the APHEX is bypassed, step on A# and an entire loop of stompboxes comes on line. You get the picture.

The bypass relays are available from a number of vendors, the one I selected is made by PedalSync ...

I got in four of the bypass relay kits so far ....

Here's the contents of 1 kit, everything you need except some sortof switch (momentary toggle switch, momentary footswitch, logic control, or whatever it is you as planning on using. In my case it is a bass pedal) ....

Here's a link to the PedalSync website (scroll down to the "MV-57B" once you get there) ...

http://www.pedalsync.com/

Here's a link to the MV-57B datasheet ...

http://www.pedalsync.com/documentation/PedalSync_MV-57_MV-57B_Relay_Bypass_Datasheet.pdf

STILL TO WORK OUT:

I still have not completely figured out the mechanical design just yet. Y'know, stuff like what type of cabinet or enclosure to use .. that sortof stuff. And I'm still working on how I will switch between modes (midi note, midi control, analogue switching). It's coming along, slow but sure.

SUMMARY:
So, this X-Pedal will provide midi-note, midi-control (CC, prgram change, and so on), and analogue N/O and N/C momentary switching. My thinking is that I'll use a latching footswitch assigned to each pedal to tell it what it "is". 3 separate modes for each pedal (midi-note, midi-control, and momentary switch). I'm still working out the details about the modal switching of the pedals, but it's getting there.

In the end thesee bass pedals will be a master control unit that will do midi program changes for my midi gear (Line 6 POD Pro and M13 multi-FX/Phrase Looper unit), control the phrase looper, play midi notes to be able to play synth-bass (either midi-modules or my analogue synth via a midi-to-CV converter made by Kenton), and finally provide analogue momentary switch functions for devices needing that type of input.

PLAYING ANALOGUE SYNTHS:
The really really weird thing about this setup, is that to play my analogue modular synth with these old converted bass pedals, I have to convert the organ bass pedals note switches to midi so that I can send midi-note info. That midi-note info is sent to a device that converts midi-note input to CV ("control voltage" at 1volt/per octave) to send something the analogue modular synthesizer can understand as "music".

So ... analogue, to midi, back to analogue again!

What a trip.

 

[TOOL460002]

Want so bad. Need MIDI foot keys. Bought rack Korg Triton. Oh the things I could do...

Great thread! Thanks.

 

[Flux Jetson]

Want so bad. Need MIDI foot keys. Bought rack Korg Triton. Oh the things I could do...

Great thread! Thanks.

Doing something like this is an easier reach (financially speaking) than buying ready-made units such as Rolands or StudioLogics or whatever. The pedals themselves cost about $25 to $50, the pcbs are about $45 to $70 each (fully built and ready to use) depending on which one we're talking about here. Cabinetry can be as little as a few dollars to high-bux, depending on wants, needs, available resources, available skills. You can build up a set of these things for as little as a hunsky ($100). And in affordable chunks, as well.

I figure that with the stuffs that are available in these times you can actually build something more capable than you can buy for 5x the money! And it will be made with available and replacable parts, as well.

Go for it mangs. Step one is locating and buying the organ pedals. They're on ebay pretty regularly. I'd highly suggest Hammond units, and to me the most preferable type are the M100 pedals (like the set I'm using in this thread). I bought these for about $50 by the time they were shipped.

Sometimes you can get them free, if you find one of those free Hammonds that is a total trainwreck but the bass pedals are in usable shape.

Then you can use some of the info I am posting in this project thread to help you through the build up, or refer to the much stuffs on the webz for further notions, motions, and potions.

Get on yer bike and ride, Mangs!

Banzai!

 

[howardcano]

Want so bad. Need MIDI foot keys. Bought rack Korg Triton. Oh the things I could do...

Great thread! Thanks.

Check out the forum at midipedals.com for many photos of cost-effective conversions:

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And of course the Talkbass Bass Pedal thread:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f36/bass-pedal-taurus-roland-midi-etc-club-781414/

 

[Flux Jetson]

Check out the forum at midipedals.com for many photos of cost-effective conversions:

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Yup, there's a lot of great ideas out there on the internet! Some that are much less involved than the silly stuff I build.

Hit that forum that Howard linked there and you may find more inspiration, the CYGNUS conversion kit really makes things easy to get done, with great results.

 

[RAMUSIC]

Long time no see Flux! (My fault of course, you're always posting haha). Any updates on the MIDI bass pedals?

 

[Flux Jetson]

Long time no see Flux! (My fault of course, you're always posting haha). Any updates on the MIDI bass pedals?

Actually yes. I've been holding off with it until I got my collective shyte together with my modular synth because I want to have multiple functions in the bass pedals. I've been modding the heck out of my synth to suit a few new functions, and I'm nearly done with that. Well, since I've got some forward motion going on my synth, which means I now know more about what I am going to do with the bass pedals. I mean sure ... yea .. they'll be "midi bass pedals" .. or course. But they'll also provide functions as momentary footswitches to be used with various FX pedals, bypassing various FX, activating certain modular synth functions, tap tempo, midi program change messages to change programs on my POD Pro and Alesis 8 chanel 31 band EQ, trigger sequnces, used as a sustain pedal for my kybds to latch arpeggios, as well as be used to switch pickups on my X-Bass (yes, a footswitch to change pickup mixes and pickup selection ... done it already .. it works GREAT! I've even done a couple of SoundCloud tracks of that function).

So ... I'm now penciling up how I will set up the multi-function ability of the bass pedals. A few questions still hang in the air (such as will each pedal/key have individual multi functions or will that be a global thing where the entire bass pedal is either a set of midi pedals or it is a set of momentary foot switches .. that sort of thing).

I was hoping to do something like put a stompbox-type footswitch above each pedal/key to select it's individual function (midi note or momentary). That way I could set up certain keys as momentary footswitches and other keys as midi note triggers in certain songs that require both. Very few songs require all 13 notes on a pedal set, so the pedal/keys not needed for a certain song could be switched to momentary switch function.

That sounds all well and good, but it could become a logistic nightmare.

So I'm still kinda working through that a little bit, but I am actually making progress. As far as the cabinet part goes, it will most likely turn out a lot like a Moog Taurus, with an angled front panel that has footswitches on it (and perhaps one or two expression pedals). I've done some pencil drawings on that aspect as well.

Gettin' there!!!!!!



Thanks for asking.

Fluxoid of Earth.

 

[Flux Jetson]

I go in to the VA today to see my VA doctor about a super painful "bone spur" in my left shoulder. If it is left unattended to it will end up cutting through super vital tendons that make a person able to move their arm. If that happens, no more bass playing for the rest of my life.

So today marks APPT #1 ... a consultation ... then my guess is the next one will be X-rays here at our local Marine base (probably a week or so from today), then my next guess would be having an MRI done at the VA hospital 300 miles from here (probably a month or so after the X-rays), then the next guess would be another consult, then hopefully repair surgery.

The surgery would involve cutting open the shoulder area, and then somehow shaving off or ~grinding down~ the spur of bone that has grown in my shoulder joint and is tearing in to very important tendons and ligaments that are responsible for arm movement. Once the bone spur (think of a sharp growth of bone) is removed/ground down/shaved down it should ... SHOULD ... be ok for the remainder of my life (I'll be 53 this September.)

In any case, this whole situation is robbing me of precious time I need to complete my ongoing projects. Music is all I have in my life. I have no other form of happiness, no other form of recreation, no other "outlet" or social activity. Take that away and I'm just a living consumer, breathing air, eating food, and producing nothing that adds to the "zeitgeist" of humanity. Making music is my only "proof of life" .. it's the only thing I will leave behind that proves I was even here! My wife and I have been together since 1979, but we never had kids. So making music and recording it, giving it to my friends and relatives, is the only thing that I will leave behind that proves I ever existed.

So ok ... enough whining. Just thought I'd let everyone that is following this (and my X-Rig project) what I have going on that may affect this project.

Fluxtard.

 

[Flux Jetson]

SCRATCH THAT: The VA just called, my Dr. called in sick today. So we'll have to see when the next available appointment is.

Dang is all!!

 

[howardcano]

I wish you the best of luck!

After the surgery, you'll need to use those feet for your bass lines!

 

[Glenn Szymanski]

Hello. I see that this thread has been dead for quite a while, but thought I'd try. I bought one of these kits from the new owner called Basyn (although he hasn't been very responsive to my emails asking for support). I have 3 sets of Hammond bass pedals (two from an M-3 and one from an M-142). I believe these are all the normally closed type. I've included photos. It also seems that each unit type has a few extra wires. The M-3 has 12 pedals, but has 16 wires (13 have a plain black coating, plus a grey, brown, and blue). The M-142 has 13 pedals, but 17 wires (13 plain black, plus a grey, brown, and blue). I see that there used to be links on here to the midipedals site where there was probably information on converting these circuits to be normally open, but those links are now dead. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[ledzurso]

Hello. I see that this thread has been dead for quite a while, but thought I'd try. I bought one of these kits from the new owner called Basyn (although he hasn't been very responsive to my emails asking for support). I have 3 sets of Hammond bass pedals (two from an M-3 and one from an M-142). I believe these are all the normally closed type. I've included photos. It also seems that each unit type has a few extra wires. The M-3 has 12 pedals, but has 16 wires (13 have a plain black coating, plus a grey, brown, and blue). The M-142 has 13 pedals, but 17 wires (13 plain black, plus a grey, brown, and blue). I see that there used to be links on here to the midipedals site where there was probably information on converting these circuits to be normally open, but those links are now dead. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

Glenn, I'm in the same boat. Not sure how to convert the switches. If I figure it out I'll make a post about it.

 

[twocargar]

Sorry, guys. I just saw this. Here’s a link that includes how to convert pedals from normally closed to normally open. @howardcano wrote it and I put it together. http://twocargar.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/ConvertNCtoNOPedals.pdf

 

[ledzurso]

twocargar, thank you!! Much appreciated!!