D' Bag Guitarist Advise

[Mystic Michael]

Band funds are fine if they're administered properly.

And oft times, one is necessary. Or at the very least, extremely useful.

Here's a question for the peanut gallery: If a band has $4000 in the band fund and one guy quits or is fired, should he get to take his share of the band fund?

My gut reaction, on principle, is to say "yes". However in the real world, I think the proper answer is probably "it depends", and a good case can usually be made for either a "yes" or a "no" on that question.

As ever, the bottom line is a matter of whatever is negotiated - and agreed to - prior to a) the band fund (and/or band) being created, or b) the individual member joining the band.

MM

 

[afzoomie67]

For a band fund, if there were 4 people, everyone should get 1/5, and so that's 4/5. And then the other 1/5, goes to the band fund.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

Here's a question for the peanut gallery: If a band has $4000 in the band fund and one guy quits or is fired, should he get to take his share of the band fund?

This is the number one reason why I don't do band funds. If I want to split or if I get fired I want to be able to take my contributions with me when I'm done. If you collect the money upfront then it's yours to do whatever you want with it. If you put it into the band fund first, however, there's no saying whether or not you'll actually be able to get it.

 

[oniman7]

I don't do band funds unless everybody donates on their own and understands that what goes in doesn't come out when someone leaves

 

[fdeck]

Here's a question for the peanut gallery: If a band has $4000 in the band fund and one guy quits or is fired, should he get to take his share of the band fund?

Yes. I assume, unless an agreement has been made to the contrary, that a band is a partnership with joint ownership of the band fund. Breaking the partnership doesn't entitle the other band members to your money.

 

[JohnMCA72]

Actually, pretty damn hard. It's one thing that gets screwed up more than anything else in a band. Getting 4 or more people to agree on what to do with common funds isn't simple.

Yet somehow doctors, dentists, lawyers, carpenters, electricians, plumbers, painters, & plenty of other professionals manage to form companies & keep records. It's just a matter of caring, & taking your business seriously.

 

[EddiePlaysBass]

It should start before you acept an offer to join a band. Ask specific question about money and pay just like any other job.

Agreed, communication is key and agreements need to be made upfront, not assumptions.

For me if it's 4 members, I require a fourth of what the band is paid for the night. I don't give up any of my share to the Guy that owns the pa.

This comes down to what is agreed. We recently started having an extra guy come by to run sound for us. He is relatively new at all this and is learning, but the band has decided to pay him EUR 50,- per gig he does for us. That means each band member chips in a tenner of the night's fee.

We do this because the guy is a friend of the band, and friendship and business don't mix well so we separate them by paying him a fee, even though he offered his services for free. If in the future he wants more money, we will have to break open the negotiations

Emails about all upcoming gigs including the fee that was charged.

This is a good one. We set up contracts for every gig we play, and it has helped avoid discussion: at one recent gig our singer charged EUR 50,- less than he thought, and the bar owner had the contract to prove it. No arguments were needed, we got the money we were contractually owed and will probably play there again in the near future (for a better fee )

I make it clear that I do not participate in band funds. If you need money for band related expenses, provide me with a receipt and I will pay my share.

The only "band fund" we have is the occasional EUR 20,- we all chip in to pay for the rehearsal space. I keep track of that money, make sure payments are made on time and that everyone contributes when the time comes. Occasionally we will agree to put part of the money earned from a gig into this fund - since it basically comes down to the same thing: either you take it from the source or it comes out of your wallet later.

 

[guy n. cognito]

Yet somehow doctors, dentists, lawyers, carpenters, electricians, plumbers, painters, & plenty of other professionals manage to form companies & keep records. It's just a matter of caring, & taking your business seriously.

Well sure, John. Let's explore that issue for a moment.

When doctors form partnerships, they traditionally form a Professional Corporation or LLC. That document is usually dozens of pages long and is crafted by an attorney charging thousands of dollars for the service. Yet, even with all this protection, doctors will still disagree over the management of their partnerships, and sue each other on a regular basis. Even if they don't disagree, they employ individuals and accounting firms who's sole job it is to manage their money and their partnership, costing tens of thousands or more per year

Any other professional group would be the same. The civil courts are full of individuals that have disagreed with the management of their company or partnership to the point that they sue.

Musicians, on the other hand, rarely go to such lengths to document such agreements. If they bother documenting it at all, it's via email or some other sort of self-generated format that is virtually unenforceable. The money is self-managed, usually by a single member of the band. The partnerships that musicians form (you call it a 'band') rarely last for very long, and are usually pretty unstable. The pages of this board, as well as any other musicians board, are littered with stories of stolen and misappropriated band funds. You're posting in one of those stories right now.

So, please continue to pretend that you are on the same professional level with those professions you listed above, but reality is substantially different your assumptions.

 

[Chef FourString]

Remind him of the legal situation at hand. Leave him the number of your lawyer and tell him to call if he has any questions. That usually works well. Good luck.

 

[john_g]

I am in a good band with guys that each make enough money with their full time jobs that there is never any issues with money. I even think that if I came to them and said, hey I am down on my luck, can I take most of the pay from a gig, they would say yes. So Im lucky.

However, I recently tried out for another band (not to replace the first, just to gig more locally) and they mentioned a "band fund" and how the outgoing bassist owned the PA and I would need to kick in for a new one. Cue this sound:



And I was out of there. None for me thanks, Im driving!

 

[taliesin]

Here's a question for the peanut gallery: If a band has $4000 in the band fund and one guy quits or is fired, should he get to take his share of the band fund?

Absent any previous agreement that the band keeps the money, yes.

 

[48thStreetCustom]

Absent any previous agreement that the band keeps the money, yes.

Playing devils advocate. If a guy quits and the band uses the band fund to make a recording, the guy who quit is funding a recording he didn't play on. That seems fair to you?

 

[taliesin]

My point was that if there was an agreement in place that money put into the band fund belongs to the band even if an individual member leaves, then it could be put toward the recording.

If there was no agreement, then the person leaving should be refunded his share.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

Playing devils advocate. If a guy quits and the band uses the band fund to make a recording, the guy who quit is funding a recording he didn't play on. That seems fair to you?

I see what you're trying to do here

There's what's fair and then there's what's realistically going to happen. If you're canned I highly doubt you're going to be able to say, "Hey, I want what's mine from the band fund. Please give me a check sometime in the next two weeks" and actually see any money come from it.

 

[48thStreetCustom]

My point was that if there was an agreement in place that money put into the band fund belongs to the band even if an individual member leaves, then it could be put toward the recording.

If there was no agreement, then the person leaving should be refunded his share.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

It's cool, brah. I was just playing devil's advocate

 

[48thStreetCustom]

I see what you're trying to do here

There's what's fair and then there's what's realistically going to happen. If you're canned I highly doubt you're going to be able to say, "Hey, I want what's mine from the band fund. Please give me a check sometime in the next two weeks" and actually see any money come from it.

Yeah, you're right. Just one more messy reason not to do band funds

 

[BWB]

I think I have mentioned my personal methodology to prevent this and it will be different for anyone just depends on where your at.

It should start before you acept an offer to join a band. Ask specific question about money and pay just like any other job.

For me if it's 4 members, I require a fourth of what the band is paid for the night. I don't give up any of my share to the Guy that owns the pa.

Emails about all upcoming gigs including the fee that was charged.

I make it clear that I do not participate in band funds. If you need money for band related expenses, provide me with a receipt and I will pay my share.

Blue

Win

 

[Febs]

Well sure, John. Let's explore that issue for a moment.

When doctors form partnerships, they traditionally form a Professional Corporation or LLC. That document is usually dozens of pages long and is crafted by an attorney charging thousands of dollars for the service. Yet, even with all this protection, doctors will still disagree over the management of their partnerships, and sue each other on a regular basis. Even if they don't disagree, they employ individuals and accounting firms who's sole job it is to manage their money and their partnership, costing tens of thousands or more per year

Any other professional group would be the same. The civil courts are full of individuals that have disagreed with the management of their company or partnership to the point that they sue.

Musicians, on the other hand, rarely go to such lengths to document such agreements. If they bother documenting it at all, it's via email or some other sort of self-generated format that is virtually unenforceable. The money is self-managed, usually by a single member of the band. The partnerships that musicians form (you call it a 'band') rarely last for very long, and are usually pretty unstable. The pages of this board, as well as any other musicians board, are littered with stories of stolen and misappropriated band funds. You're posting in one of those stories right now.

So, please continue to pretend that you are on the same professional level with those professions you listed above, but reality is substantially different your assumptions.

I know of a number of bands that are organized as LLCs, or S corporations. It may not be YOUR reality, but it is not at all uncommon among the bands I work with.

 

[soitainly]

It's always tricky how to handle money in semi-pro bands. Usually it is a bunch of friends that just like to play music, money is secondary. The problem is when someone tries to take advantage of other's good will.

At some point, everyone has to have a good agreement of how to deal with expenses, and situations that may come up. If band members are relying on in part or whole by band income, then you have to start thinking like a professional and write these agreements down.

$310 doesn't sound like a lot of money, but if it was agreed upon, it should be honored. One person shouldn't arbitrarily be able to just pocket that money, or designate it for something else.

Hooking up with decent and honorable guys is just as hard, and just as important, as joining up with good musicians.

 

[millsbass5]

Band funds are bad........

Ah, it really depends on who you hook up with. I've been in the same band almost 20 years, and we've had a band fund for going on 18 of those years. We've also purchased 3 "overkill" P.A.'s, strings, sticks, drum heads, mics, F/X, cables, etc. Not to mention any routine maintenance on anything over the years. Our fund is now well over 25k!! Nobody asked about it for a l-o-n-g while, and our keys player shows up to a gig with all the bank deposit slips, along with the bankbook. When we all took a look, we all just about fell over. Now, we're calling it the "band/gig retirement fund". Like I said, it's all in who you hook up with. The guys in the band are my absolute, best friends. More like immediate family, really.
After parting up/selling the gear when we call it a day, my portion is goin' towards a big block muscle car of some sort.