D7(#11) Chord Questions (Take the A Train)

[Matthew_84]

The second chord in Take the A Train’s A and B sections is a D7(#11) (or some people claim it’s a D7b5, I’m not sure which is correct). Anyways, it’s a secondary dominant to the G7 chord and the G# of this chord is very important to the melody.

If it is indeed a D7(#11) how is the chord played? Would it be 1-3-5-7-#11?

And when soloing/walking, could you play the 4th as a natural 4th and play the augmented 4th as well, or avoid the natural 4th altogether?

D7(b5) makes more sense to me in a how-to-play-it way (you’d just flat the 5th), but I don’t know what scale would make that chord (though I definitely need to learn more scales) or why that chord would have been chosen - whereas the D7(#11) would be the 4th mode of A melodic minor, which would be the relative (melodic) minor of the song’s key (C Natural Major).

Thanks!

edit: if that last bit is true (about the 4th mode of A melodic minor), then there wouldn’t be a natural 4th, so that answers that question about soloing/walking

 

[Snake Doctor]

Hi Mathew

The chord in question is a D7(b5) which is constructed R-3-b5-b7. The difference between a D7(b5) and a D7(#11) is that the natural 5th is in the chord, so that is spelled R-3-5-b7-#11.
The scale for scales for the D7(b5) are Wholetone and Altered.

Hope that helps!

All the Bass

Joe

 

[Matthew_84]

Hi Mathew

The chord in question is a D7(b5) which is constructed R-3-b5-b7. The difference between a D7(b5) and a D7(#11) is that the natural 5th is in the chord, so that is spelled R-3-5-b7-#11.
The scale for scales for the D7(b5) are Wholetone and Altered.

Hope that helps!

All the Bass

Joe

Great! Thank you Joe! I appreciate your reply!

 

[Richard Lindsey]

There's certainly more than one way to skin a chordal cat, but FWIW I've probably more often heard people play it as a D9#11, probably because of the high E in the melody. From this perspective, the most obvious matching chord-scale would be D lydian dominant, in which A natural is not an avoid note (as it would be with the D whole tone scale, which would tend to imply something more like D9b5). But again, that's not the only way of approaching the musical moment. And I don't know exactly how it originally was.

EDIT: In view of the E natural in the melody, the D alt scale might be a tough sell in this context, given that that scale has only Eb and E#/F in it. But during solos, who knows.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

We've had that conversation at TB:

Take the 'A' Train analysis

 

[Whousedtoplay]

The second chord in Take the A Train’

If we listen to Duke Ellington's rendition of "Take the A Train," then,
In INTRO(!), we have C6 with G in the bass.
The second chord has the following voicing structure: (ascending)
F# C E and G#/Ab while the bass is playing F#.

 

[Don Kasper]

In INTRO(!), we have C6 with G in the bass.

What???? No...starting @0:11 in YT below - Intro - C triad (G,C,E) to D9 (F#,C,E) in the left hand. No bass note yet. Listen for the moving half-step in the pianist's left hand - G to F#.

The second chord has the following voicing structure: (ascending)
F# C E and G#/Ab while the bass is playing F#

What??? No...Bass is playing an ascending bassline - D,E,F#,(G?), A,B,C,C#......(I would not play a "G" there...I'd play either G# or Bb.)
This is what my Earz are telling me.
Thanks.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Intro - C triad (G,C,E) to D9 (F#,C,E) in the left hand. No bass note yet. Listen for the moving half-step in the pianist's left hand - G to F#.

Yes, in INTRO, the pianist's left hand plays G to F# - the LOWEST NOTE/S.

Here is what I mean, INTRO.

Bass is playing an ascending bassline - D,E,F#,(G?)

Here is what I hear of the bass notes in that Measure 3 of Part A.

(ascending) C - D - E - G.
In Measure 4 (Part A), the bass plays (a pickup C)
A on Beat1,
B - Beat2
C - Beat 3,
C# - Beat4.

In short, the bass plays C on Beat 1 in Measure 3 in Part A

 

[Don Kasper]

Yes, in INTRO, the pianist's left hand plays G to F# - the LOWEST NOTE/S.

That "G" in the left hand is not LOW enuf to qualify as a bass note - it is simply (the lowest) part of the C triad.
Same with the "F#".
Also - the chart incorrectly spells "D7b5" instead of "D9.....". That "...9" is critical to the flavor of the "D7..."
Again, my Earz are telling me this.
IMFO, of course.
Thank You, Who...

 

[Whousedtoplay]

That "G" in the left hand is not LOW enuf to qualify as a bass note

I've disqualified that lowest note played in the left pianist hand as a bass note.
Your decision stands.

the chart incorrectly spells "D7b5" instead of "D9

Agree, but...
Where is any remote "possibility" of any D note?

 

[Don Kasper]

Agree, but...
Where is any remote "possibility" of any D note?

Do you mean there is no "D note" in that chord?
My earz tell me that the Tritone (F# - C) is strongly suggesting a D7 (D7,9) harmony.
Just my $0.03.
Thx!

 

[Don Kasper]

Here is what I hear of the bass notes in that Measure 3 of Part A.

(ascending) C - D - E - G.
In Measure 4 (Part A), the bass plays (a pickup C)
A on Beat1,
B - Beat2
C - Beat 3,
C# - Beat4.

In short, the bass plays C on Beat 1 in Measure 3 in Part A

Are we listening to the same recording? The bassist is walking 4 quarter notes per bar. Disregard the INTRO.
This one?

In m.3, he is walking up D,E,F#, (G?). Then, on to m.4 - as you and I both stated - A,B,C,C#.
Am I misunderstanding your comment? (I might be.)
Thx.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

the Tritone (F# - C) is strongly suggesting a D7 (D7,9) harmony.

Yes, there is that "very strong suggestion."

 

[Whousedtoplay]

In m.3, he is walking up D,E,F#, (G?).

In M1 the bass walks:
C C E G
M2 - A B C G.
M3 - C D E (that E slides to F natural) G# (for sure G#).

From here:

 

[Don Kasper]

In M1 the bass walks:
C C E G
M2 - A B C G.
M3 - C D E (that E slides to F natural) G# (for sure G#).

From here:

OK.
Thx.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

In Measure 9 of the same D9b5 chord, I hear the bass walking (descending):
D D Db Bb
Measure 10:
Ab Gb D C

 

[Whousedtoplay]

OK.
Thx.

I'll recheck it tomorrow on "fresh" ears.

 

[Groove Master]

I usually saw that chord as a lydian dominant but after listening to the original recording(which I don't do enough) I hear the intention of the composer as a whole-tone scale more than anything else.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

OK.
Thx.

Don,

Here is a highly-filtered (slower) bass line from M1 through M4 in Part A.\
That C note (on Beat1) with D9b5 is around 0:06.

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...2/?temp_hash=3a3541eb87d830e12f6c18fca12d1d65

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I usually saw that chord as a lydian dominant but after listening to the original recording(which I don't do enough) I hear the intention of the composer as a whole-tone scale more than anything else.

As a comic relief.
That "chord" of (ascending) F# G# C and E resolves happily into C# major.
Or as some Ab augmented 7 chord into Db.