D7(#11) Chord Questions (Take the A Train)

[Don Kasper]

Don,

Here is a highly-filtered (slower) bass line from M1 through M4 in Part A.\
That C note (on Beat1) with D9b5 is around 0:06.

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...2/?temp_hash=3a3541eb87d830e12f6c18fca12d1d65

I salute your fine analysis and scholarship.
I stand (sit?) corrected!
I will do better in the future.
Thanks, as always, WUTP!

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I usually saw that chord as a lydian dominant but after listening to the original recording(which I don't do enough) I hear the intention of the composer as a whole-tone scale more than anything else.

Yeah, me too. Funny how after hearing a tune played a zillion times, one can go back to the original and hear something a little different. I have heard the whole tone scale used there, but mostly as an occasional "special effect"; but in this early version it sounds like it's built in.

 

[Groove Master]

Yeah, me too. Funny how after hearing a tune played a zillion times, one can go back to the original and hear something a little different. I have heard the whole tone scale used there, but mostly as an occasional "special effect"; but in this early version it sounds like it's built in.

Yeah totally. And this is not a cover song but the real deal ;-)

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I salute your fine analysis and scholarship.
I stand (sit?) corrected!
I will do better in the future.
Thanks, as always, WUTP!

Don,

As an amateur musician I just tend to listen at a slower (and slower) tempo. I don't have any other skills.

I've found on Youtube a transcribed Ron Brown's bass line of "Take the A Train."
Lot's of notes in the D9b5 measures.

From here:

 

[Whousedtoplay]

P.S. Today is Friday, a day when an amateur musician (like me) can say "strange" things; therefore...

I decided to interpret that chord of D7b5 in INTRO(only!) as Ab aug7.
There is (officially) no bass note/s.
It's only our "imposed" assumption that it's D9b5.
My "less-than-amateur-knowledge" says, "Why don't you interpret it as Abaug7?"

As in the following chord progression:

I - VIb (flat VI).

N.B. But only in INTRO!


In part A and B, that chord becomes D9b5 - no argument about it.
What's more, the original score has enough various Ab chords.

 

[Matthew_84]

View attachment 4756975

Another question about this tune: as you can see in WUTP's attachment, the last measure before the B section has a Gm7 chord for two beats, followed by a C7.

The B section starts with with an F Maj7 chord for four beats, so it's clear the C7 leading into it is a secondary dominant, but what about that Gm7 before the C7? The key of the song is in C Major, so a G chord should be a G7.

Is it possibly a Gm7 chord because by using the secondary dominant to F Maj7 (the C7) the song kind of has a soft modulation to the key of F Major - in which case, the G chord would be a Gm7?

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Another question about this tune: as you can see in WUTP's attachment, the last measure before the B section has a Gm7 chord for two beats, followed by a C7.

The B section starts with with an F Maj7 chord for four beats, so it's clear the C7 leading into it is a secondary dominant, but what about that Gm7 before the C7? The key of the song is in C Major, so a G chord should be a G7.

There's not really any "should" about it. It depends on what the composer is trying to do.

Is it possibly a Gm7 chord because by using the secondary dominant to F Maj7 (the C7) the song kind of has a soft modulation to the key of F Major - in which case, the G chord would be a Gm7?

It's not really a modulation, because you haven't really gone to a new key. It's more of a tonicization. By using a secondary dominant, you're acting for the moment as if the chord the dominant resolves to is a tonic, but very often, as in this tune, it becomes clear that you haven't really gone to a whole new key, you've just pretended you have for a moment. In a manner of speaking.

Using that Gm7 is just a common way of expanding the dominant by turning a V into a ii-V. I think one of our posters here called it the "interpolated ii." Functionally, you could, if you like, think of it as a suspension of the V--something like C7sus 4 to C7. Or as a substitute for the subdominant of the new temporary tonic. The point is the move to F, which you may notice is already being set up by the C7 that precedes the Gm7.

This device is as common as dirt in jazz and is one of the most widely used ways to get to a new key or a new temporary tonic.

 

[Matthew_84]

Using that Gm7 is just a common way of expanding the dominant by turning a V into a ii-V.

Thank you! Everything you said made perfect sense, but the moment I read your above sentence is really when I had my "a-ha" moment. Thanks!

And thank you and everyone else who has contributed to this thread as well! I didn't want to interfere too much, but you all had some great dialogue and insight and I've really learned a lot. Cheers!

 

[Lorin Cohen]

I think A Melodic Minor (same as D Lydian Dominant) on the II7 chord of A Train.

From my listening to the masters blowing on this tune, this tends to be the most common sound with some chromaticism in the mix.

Here's a classic lick that gets at this heart of this idea:
Dropbox - AMelMinLick.mov - Simplify your life

 

[Groove Master]

The second chord in Take the A Train’s A and B sections is a D7(#11) (or some people claim it’s a D7b5, I’m not sure which is correct). Anyways, it’s a secondary dominant to the G7 chord and the G# of this chord is very important to the melody.

If it is indeed a D7(#11) how is the chord played? Would it be 1-3-5-7-#11?

And when soloing/walking, could you play the 4th as a natural 4th and play the augmented 4th as well, or avoid the natural 4th altogether?

D7(b5) makes more sense to me in a how-to-play-it way (you’d just flat the 5th), but I don’t know what scale would make that chord (though I definitely need to learn more scales) or why that chord would have been chosen - whereas the D7(#11) would be the 4th mode of A melodic minor, which would be the relative (melodic) minor of the song’s key (C Natural Major).

Thanks!

edit: if that last bit is true (about the 4th mode of A melodic minor), then there wouldn’t be a natural 4th, so that answers that question about soloing/walking

After hearing the Duke's version, he's playing it with the whole-tone scale so having a D7b5 instead of the #11 would fit better regarding the original meaning of that chord.