Double Bass D'Addario Helicore Megathread

[martinc]

Hey guys hope I can get some comment on this (I may start a new thread) but I'm thinking of trying hellicores on my bass particularly the hybrids I just can't decide between lights and mediums. I play spirocore medium 4/4 right now and they just feel too stiff. The issue is the 4/4 weich sound too weak. Anyone know if the lights would be a happy medium?

bskts: What size is your bass....3/4 or 4/4? The tension of 3/4 Weichs on a 3/4 bass should be just right for you. If you have a 4/4 bass the tension of the medium Helicore Hybrids is somewhere between the 4/4 Spiro Mittel and Weich.
The Helicore Lights are about the same tension as the 4/4 Spiro Weichs which you say are too weak.
I have a tension chart I downloaded from this website several years ago...check out the search in this string section. Or e mail D'Addario.

 

[Sam Dingle]

I did look at the tension chart and that's why I wanted clarification. My experience with the 4/4 medium spiros is that they feel too stiff for the right hand. The 3/4 Weich felt great on my bass to my recollection but I think I only had them on for a month.

 

[martinc]

I did look at the tension chart and that's why I wanted clarification. My experience with the 4/4 medium spiros is that they feel too stiff for the right hand. The 3/4 Weich felt great on my bass to my recollection but I think I only had them on for a month.

bskts: OK....so you have a 3/4 bass? I have a problem with the high tension of Mittels (3885) but find the 3/4 Weich (3885) ideal. Except for the zingy G. A medium Zyex G is a great substitute.

None of this info may be worth much to you because our basses are not the same. It's also very unlikely that our right hands play the same. The Gollihur website describes all these strings very well. The best way is to buy a Spiro Weich 3885 A and D and try them. Give them a couple of weeks to settle down though.

 

[Sam Dingle]

I may try that. I have a 3/4 bass but it is quite tight playing (could be a setup thing but I've tried almost everything). Thanks for the help.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

The Helicore Lights are about the same tension as the 4/4 Spiro Weichs which you say are too weak.

I have measured the tension of S42, S42W and Helicore Light and the Helicore Light are much closer in tension to the S42 than the S42W.
They are very close in tension to the Spiro Weich 3/4 (3886.0W), just the Hybrid Light G has about 1kg less tension than the Spiro Weich 3/4 G..

 

[Mark Gollihur]

I may try that. I have a 3/4 bass but it is quite tight playing (could be a setup thing but I've tried almost everything).

It's an obvious point, but I will mention (for the benefit of my next point) that the actual tension of the strings is going to be the same on any bass if their scale length is the same. It has to be; the tension of the string at a certain length needs to be exactly that tension to sound the pitch it's designed for.

So you're right, it probably is a setup thing. Other factors can raise or lower "apparent" tension; things like the break angle of the strings over the bridge, length of the afterlength (from bridge to tailpiece), etc. Also, if your fingerboard and nut are not well set up, this can make the bass harder to play. It's a tricky game!

Just some stuff to think about...

 

[Sam Dingle]

Ok. My question is though why (from what I have noticed) are the 4/4 spiros less tension on my bass then the 3/4?

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Because the 4/4 Spiros are made to have the same tension on 110 cm as the 3/4 Spiros on 105 cm.
What happens if you press down the 110 cm string on pitch at 105 cm? The pitch is about a halftone higher. So to get the same pitch as the open string you have to tune the string down which drops the tension. It's almost like using a lighter string made for the shorter scale. So a S42 4/4 Mittel has a similar tension to a 3885.0W Weich.

 

[Sam Dingle]

I can see that. I think I misread what mark was saying. Sorry about that.

 

[martinc]

I have measured the tension of S42, S42W and Helicore Light and the Helicore Light are much closer in tension to the S42 than the S42W.
They are very close in tension to the Spiro Weich 3/4 (3886.0W), just the Hybrid Light G has about 1kg less tension than the Spiro Weich 3/4 G..

Double: From the tension chart I have for a huge selection of strings:

D'Addario Hybrid Light: G-58.2 D- 61.3 A- 63.0 E -64.0
Spiro 3885 (Weich) : G-60.6 D-61.7 A- 63.9 E- 66.17
Spiro S42 (Weich): G- 56.9 D-61.1 A-63.1 E-65.3
Spiro S42 (Mittel): G-63.1 D- 67.3 A-71.7 E-71.7

As you can see from this chart that came from this website (that I based my earlier comment on) , the Helicore Hybrid Lights are much closer to the S42 Weich than the S42 Mittels. You mentioned above that the Helcores Hybrid Lights are closer in tension to the Spiro S42.....but as you can see....there is a huge tension difference between the Helicore Hybrid Lights and the 4/4 Spiro S42 Mittels

Maybe the manufacturers use a different way of measuring tension than you. Regardless.... the only way bskts is going to find out which is the best string for him ...is to try them.

Also re the "tight" playing bskts says he is experiencing. One factor in this could be the soundpost position. I have been fooling around with my soundpost after I installed some new Spiro Weichs. I moved it slightly closer to the rear side of the bridge foot.
I have never been able to understand this "tight playing" problem before but I must admit my bass feels much easier to play without any loss in response, now I have made the soundpost adjustment.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Double: From the tension chart I have for a huge selection of strings:

D'Addario Hybrid Light: G-58.2 D- 61.3 A- 63.0 E -64.0
Spiro 3885 (Weich) : G-60.6 D-61.7 A- 63.9 E- 66.17
Spiro S42 (Weich): G- 56.9 D-61.1 A-63.1 E-65.3
Spiro S42 (Mittel): G-63.1 D- 67.3 A-71.7 E-71.7

As you can see from this chart that came from this website (that I based my earlier comment on) , the Helicore Hybrid Lights are much closer to the S42 Weich than the S42 Mittels. You mentioned above that the Helcores Hybrid Lights are closer in tension to the Spiro S42.....but as you can see....there is a huge tension difference between the Helicore Hybrid Lights and the 4/4 Spiro S42 Mittels

Maybe the manufacturers use a different way of measuring tension than you. Regardless.... the only way bskts is going to find out which is the best string for him ...is to try them..

Martinc,

my data is actual measured data on the same device for each string.
I measure 105 cm and 110(.5) cm just to have typical 3/4 scale and my 4/4 scale measured. These are my personal strings, except for the Helicores that I borrowed for a few days.

But that's not the point. Tension data has no meaning without scale length.
Thomastik gives the scale length on their website, 105 cm for 3/4 And 110 cm for 4/4 Spiros and Superflexible.

You can see in the data you wrote, that the 3885.0W and S42W have almost the same tension, but this is for different scale lengths. Using the formulas I posted here a while ago, you can recalculate the tension from 110 cm to 105 cm. Also see my explanation above. 4/4 strings on a 3/4 scale have less tension than on a 4/4 scale if tuned to the same pitch.

Not explaining the exact kind of string (specially 3/4 or 4/4) with Spiros or Superflexible is a constant irritation when talking about string tension.

In the USA the 4/4 Spiros are commonly used, which have less tension on a 3/4 scale than 3/4 Spiros. But on my 4/4 110 cm scale the tension is higher than on a 3/4 scale bass, so I no longer wonder why many love the Spiro Mittel (4/4) in the USA, since they almost all play a shorter scale than me.

I don't know if the scale length was in the chart you referenced (couldn't find the referenced chart myself) or if you didn't know this was something important to know to interpret the tension correctly, but that's the reason for our different points. Length, tension and mass determine the pitch.

 

[martinc]

Martinc,

my data is actual measured data on the same device for each string.
I measure 105 cm and 110(.5) cm just to have typical 3/4 scale and my 4/4 scale measured. These are my personal strings, except for the Helicores that I borrowed for a few days.

But that's not the point. Tension data has no meaning without scale length.
Thomastik gives the scale length on their website, 105 cm for 3/4 And 110 cm for 4/4 Spiros and Superflexible.

You can see in the data you wrote, that the 3885.0W and S42W have almost the same tension, but this is for different scale lengths. Using the formulas I posted here a while ago, you can recalculate the tension from 110 cm to 105 cm. Also see my explanation above. 4/4 strings on a 3/4 scale have less tension than on a 4/4 scale if tuned to the same pitch.

Not explaining the exact kind of string (specially 3/4 or 4/4) with Spiros or Superflexible is a constant irritation when talking about string tension.

In the USA the 4/4 Spiros are commonly used, which have less tension on a 3/4 scale than 3/4 Spiros. But on my 4/4 110 cm scale the tension is higher than on a 3/4 scale bass, so I no longer wonder why many love the Spiro Mittel (4/4) in the USA, since they almost all play a shorter scale than me.

I don't know if the scale length was in the chart you referenced (couldn't find the referenced chart myself) or if you didn't know this was something important to know to interpret the tension correctly, but that's the reason for our different points. Length, tension and mass determine the pitch.

double: Thanks. But most of us don't have the theory behind tension/scale etc...the manufacturers tensions for their strings are all we have to guide us. To make things more complicated D'Addario does not have specific 4/4 bass strings even though they are long enough for 3/4 and 4/4 strings. That's why I concluded my last post with the need to actually try the strings.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Only Thomastik makes 4/4 strings that differ in composition from the 3/4 strings.
D'Addario, Pirastro, Innovation, Corelli, Presto etc. all make one kind of string, sometimes long enough for 4/4 scales, sometimes not. But on a longer scale they have more tension than on a shorter one.

Thomastik has some well-known European orchestras as their customers and they may have requested some different kind of strings for old and large instruments, resulting in the different composition of 3/4 and 4/4 scale strings to have the same tension on the differing scale lengths. And they did make Mittel and Weich for instruments that react different to higher or lower top pressure.

Pirastro and D'Addario make some string sets in Light, Medium and Heavy. The lighter sets can be used on long scale instruments with a similar tension than the medium tension strings on average scale lengths and heavy tension sets on short scale instruments. Of course lighter strings can also be used if a bass gets choked by a medium tension string. It's more a marketing decision than a technical one.

Trying strings is always good, as long as you don't have to pull a lot of money out of your pockets. So getting informed a bit which strings may be good and what are definitely out of question for a certain player and instrument by looking at tension data and basic string construction can help sorting things out before buying a bunch of strings.

For those who have no idea to translate the manufacturer data into a certain application (different scale length, downtuned strings, etc.) I published the formulas here.
Find a nice formula calculator (there are a lot of nice formula calculator apps), enter the formula exactly as I wrote them down and play with them.

When talking about strings and how they work and feel one should not only include the exact and complete strings set name/description but also the scale length of the bass they are used on. Probably also how thick the top is and the distance of the soundpost from the bridge foot, but this might be a bit too much for most of us.

 

[Sam Dingle]

Thanks. One string I loved was evah weich but I felt like they became too dark too fast

 

[martinc]

I think one of the conclusions we can draw from all this analysis of string tensions is that we should perhaps stick to strings that are designed for the size of the bass we have. If Thomastik changes the formula of it's Spiro 4/4 strings, that adds another variable we have to deal with in using a 4/4 string on a 3/4 bass. Maybe we can still live with the the higher tension of a 4/4 Spiro S 42 on a 3/4 bass...but maybe we won't like the sound if we were expecting them to sound something close like the 3885's.

Thomastik's Spiro 4/4's are the exception though. D'Addario's string selection makes much more sense. Light medium and heavy for each of the three ( Pizz, Hybrid, Orchestra) categories. Then the main question is not so much about tension...but sound. The best all-round solution (for me!) is the Zyex Mediums with a Spiro Mittel E and a Spiro Weich A. That combination (or a Weich D/Zyex G) on my bass feels as good as all Spiro Weichs and sounds as good or marginally better (more full) than all-Spiro Weichs...but the Zyex do not last as long. That's a factor no tension formula will identify....just like individual left and right hand tension on the strings, or set-up.

I know that doublemidi is high on Braided Innovations. I researched the tensions (not given by the manufacturer though), the many reviews on here and my experience with the Innovation Honeys, which I thought had too much tension. The Innovation Braided seemed to match up very well in my mind to what I was looking for. However when I finally put them on my bass, they turned out to one of the worst sounding and worst playing strings I have ever tried. They are probably very good on a different bass and another player.
The tension analysis doublemidi provides is a valuable tool for us in many ways. However it's been pointed out on these string topics many times by many posters that buying any string, new or used, is the only real test that we can safely rely on. For me, it's the other variables, in addition to tension, that can also determine what makes our basses sound and feel good.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Tension is only one thing, elasticity of the core , torsional stiffness and damping of the string are other factors.
Measuring elasticity is not so much difficult, just a bit more work than tension and I still have no idea of a unit for what I can measure. Torsional stiffness is more difficult. Damping might be able to measure by the spectral decay of a plucked string.
But all this is a lot of work and might get difficult to interpret together with the other factors. So, yes, trying the string is the only practical thing, but sorting out strings that are too far away from what we found out works more or less could be done by looking and comparing numbers.

BTW, using a S42 4/4 string on a 3/4 scale bass gives you LESS tension than on a 4/4 scale. If you don't think so re-read my previous explanation.

I liked the Braided on my 110 cm scale until they got darker after a year or so. Still useable but I like it a bit brighter as in the beginning.
I'm more happy with the prototype "Studio" strings from Innovation that are on my bass since I got them one or two years ago except the D and A that had too less tension and sounded weak, so I replaced them with the Braided A and D. (Specially the high C is great.)
Sometimes I think about going back to Spiro Weich 4/4 or even Spiro Mittel 4/4, but I never got a blister using the Innovations and got some using Spiros. I think it's my hard plucking that works well with my hands on the Innovations but less good with my hands on Spiros.

 

[martinc]

Tension is only one thing, elasticity of the core , torsional stiffness and damping of the string are other factors.
Measuring elasticity is not so much difficult, just a bit more work than tension and I still have no idea of a unit for what I can measure. Torsional stiffness is more difficult. Damping might be able to measure by the spectral decay of a plucked string.
But all this is a lot of work and might get difficult to interpret together with the other factors. So, yes, trying the string is the only practical thing, but sorting out strings that are too far away from what we found out works more or less could be done by looking and comparing numbers.

BTW, using a S42 4/4 string on a 3/4 scale bass gives you LESS tension than on a 4/4 scale. If you don't think so re-read my previous explanation.

I liked the Braided on my 110 cm scale until they got darker after a year or so. Still useable but I like it a bit brighter as in the beginning.
I'm more happy with the prototype "Studio" strings from Innovation that are on my bass since I got them one or two years ago except the D and A that had too less tension and sounded weak, so I replaced them with the Braided A and D. (Specially the high C is great.)
Sometimes I think about going back to Spiro Weich 4/4 or even Spiro Mittel 4/4, but I never got a blister using the Innovations and got some using Spiros. I think it's my hard plucking that works well with my hands on the Innovations but less good with my hands on Spiros.

doublemidi: I understand that the 4/4 on a 3/4 bass has less tension....I should have said "less". I have been tossing around the idea of trying them again because of that. I misread one your previous posts and thought you said your tests showed an increase when 4/4's were on a 3/4 bass.
Anyway......this has been a good discussion. The huge number of posts about strings on this website indicates how important they are to bass playing. Heck we spend so much time touching and listening to our strings, it's no wonder we get so obsessed about them.

 

[lrhbass]

In the quest for the perfect G string, to go along with the Spiro Weichs ,I tried both the orchestra light and medium Helicore. The light was a little weak for my liking next to the Weichs. I had better luck with the medium. The size and feel works best with the Spiro's, in addition to the sound I was hoping for,which is less twang, less sustain,but just enough to work for jazz and great bow sound. Just wanted to cast my vote for the Helicore orchestra G....

 

[Bassmunnky]

Just installed the Hybrid Lights on my Wilfer...

I replaced the Belcanto, because along with the little orchestra I play in every week...I've been doing alot more Jazz trio work..and the Belcanto's thump way too much. Great Bowing...
but in the trio...I need a small amp and with a pickup....man it's a drag.

The Hybrid lights? Wow...I plunked away for about an hour and a half, just goofing around and lost track of time. I wished I started on strings like this a million years ago..I'd be a better player (would have practiced more)...

Then I bowed them...eeech...I know...I'll wait for them to break in, but crap it was that scratchy sound I hate that I had with Spiros and Correllis...I was slightly bummed...The Belcantos are so sweet with the
bow...no snarl or gank at all.

Time will tell...but I'm glad I put the on just for the pizz pleasure.

Ultimately I'm finding the middle of the road may not be the way to go with strings and just get another upright...One for Jazz...one for Orchestra...(you know like on the electric side...have a J/P with Flats and one with rounds.)...


Hmmmm

 

[DaveAceofBass]

Just installed the Hybrid Lights on my Wilfer...

I replaced the Belcanto, because along with the little orchestra I play in every week...I've been doing alot more Jazz trio work..and the Belcanto's thump way too much. Great Bowing...
but in the trio...I need a small amp and with a pickup....man it's a drag.

The Hybrid lights? Wow...I plunked away for about an hour and a half, just goofing around and lost track of time. I wished I started on strings like this a million years ago..I'd be a better player (would have practiced more)...

Then I bowed them...eeech...I know...I'll wait for them to break in, but crap it was that scratchy sound I hate that I had with Spiros and Correllis...I was slightly bummed...The Belcantos are so sweet with the
bow...no snarl or gank at all.

Time will tell...but I'm glad I put the on just for the pizz pleasure.

Ultimately I'm finding the middle of the road may not be the way to go with strings and just get another upright...One for Jazz...one for Orchestra...(you know like on the electric side...have a J/P with Flats and one with rounds.)...


Hmmmm

Are these the new formula? How did they settle in?