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Darkglass DG112N Blown speakers

B

bogibo

Sep 24, 2013
4
1
#1
Hi y'all!

Yesterday came to the unpleasant realization that after a gig my speakers were blown out. I use 2 x DG112N Darkglass cabinets and a Hartke Kilo bass head. Now to cut the long story short - a colleague of mine decide to mess with the equalizer and the volume knob, to bring out the sound of my new bass guitar, so that resulted in the volume knob set to 10. That left me with no room to turn up the volume when i needed to while on stage, which came quite fast as i wasn't able to hear that well from the very beginning. The sound engineer found a decent amount of excuses not to put a bit more bass in the monitor in front of me. So then i decided to turn up the gain knob, just so i can hear louder. I went to about 6-7 out of 10 and from the very beginning i sensed this funny smell of plastic (thinking is the plastic hard case on the Hartke head which is brand new). The cabs played till the very end though. The next day i plugged everything in and i could only slightly hear the horns making some sort of a sound... So i have a lot of questions but i'll compile those in 5:
- Is the high gain the possible cause for this situation? I guess there was a lot of clipping going on but couldn't have heard it in all the mess that was going on on stage.
- Do you know what are the exact or better substitute for the 12 inch speakers on these DG112N's?
- Do you know if these speakers can be fixed and sound the same afterwards? We think that the coil inside was burnt. When i press on the paper cone i can feel a bit of resistance and a scratching sound.
- Does the weather has something to do here as well? It was raining and a bit chilly (although we had a roof above us but probably something to do with humidity)?
- And the most basic of all - Is the Hartke Kilo too much to use with two 500w rated 12 inch Darkglass cabinets set in mono bridge all together? Because there wasn't a single time when i used these cabinets with this very head, a Darglass Microtubes 500w and a Hartke LH500 and i wouldn hear loud enough. This resulting in a distorted sound coming up from there on some low notes. For a 1000w head (the Hartke Kilo) it wasn't sounding that more loud than the two 500w heads. I'm i expecting too much from 2 x 12 inch cabs or it might have been something wrong with them in the first place, or the Kilo head?

Thanks for your thoughts and opinions!
 
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#2
I would think the high gain, high bass and high output/volume did it. It sounds to me like you all cranked everything that could and or would blow a speaker if/when you did. I've been in the same type of situation in the past where I played in a band and didn't have a powerful enough amp (it did not help at all that we were all young and dumb and simply blasted every instrument being played in the room at the time. Like, needlessly blasting it all to 11) and you guys tweaked all the wrong things at the wrong time.

I could be wrong too because it's hard to tell with something like this without being there when it happened. But it does sound like a breakdown of how not to run live bass sound. No offense.
 
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#4
that's the perfect story on why you want cabs to have more watts rating than your head. someone might accidentally max the amp out and it might be a very expensive error. if you were able to max out the cabs with a twice less powerful head, well, it's surely possible you've overpowered the cabs and melted the speakers. and yes, going from 500W to 1000W is only +3dB, it's not that much, more cabs or more efficient cabs instead of yours could make you louder than pushing those whopping watts.

this said, your volume when it happened should have been under 130dB, that's quite a lot, I hope, you had some ear protection.

there might have been other collateral damage to speakers if the voice coil melted. a safe bet would be two new speakers, the same as original. or bring it to tech that can diagnose it. and the next step would be probably to sell them and get something more effective and/or able to take more power. come on, it's only a pair of sub-compact 1x12 cabs, that's not much.

I'm not sure, why Darkglass specced them at whopping 500W, but my experience with the modern neo 112 cabs is that I can fart them out with notes on a low B even with 150W RMS. if we're talking Barefaced that would be another story, but we're not and frankly I'm not surprised, a pair of those didn't withstand a kilowatt pushed in them.
 
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#6
bogibo said:
- Do you know what are the exact or better substitute for the 12 inch speakers on these DG112N's?
Click to expand...
Whatever Darkglass recommends. Which will probably be to take them to an authorized service center because there might be more damage than just the 12" speakers.
bogibo said:
- Do you know if these speakers can be fixed and sound the same afterwards? We think that the coil inside was burnt. When i press on the paper cone i can feel a bit of resistance and a scratching sound.
Click to expand...
Hopefully an expert will come along with a more authoritative answer but my guess is that if you want it to sound the same you'll need replacement speakers. And possibly crossovers. And possibly horns. Plan for the likelihood that it might be cheaper to write these off and buy a fresh pair of cabs.
 
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#7
Aloe said:
…but my experience with the modern neo 112 cabs is that I can fart them out with notes on a low B even with 150W RMS. if we're talking Barefaced that would be another story, but we're not and frankly I'm not surprised, a pair of those didn't withstand a kilowatt pushed in them.
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It makes no difference if the speakers are Neo or ceramic, and there are certainly higher powered Neo designs being used by some manufacturers too that can handle their rated power at low freq.

In this case though, the speakers were obviously overpowered, not enough speaker for the volume desired. That said, hearing protection is also a good idea.
 
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#9
You need more speakers for what you’re trying to do. 2x12s can only get so loud. I went with a 112 and a 212. Which is more than enough for what I need and it’s a good height to put the 112 up by my ears. I would consider going to a bigger cab in general before replacing the speakers, it depends if you’re going to play that loud again or not. You should be good with those 12s though and a better sound guy and possibly the rest of the band playing slightly quieter.
I definitely would assess the situation around what was going on on that stage, flags on the play all around. Your colleague, your band mates, the sound guy, there’s no reason to be that irresponsible with sound levels.
You should also ask to borrow your colleague’s car and proceed to sit there in park with the gas pedal to the floor just to hear how it sounds.
 
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#11
agedhorse said:
It makes no difference if the speakers are Neo or ceramic, and there are certainly higher powered Neo designs being used by some manufacturers too that can handle their rated power at low freq.

In this case though, the speakers were obviously overpowered, not enough speaker for the volume desired. That said, hearing protection is also a good idea.
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If he had four 8ohm 112’s from a 2ohm amp he’d probably still be ok:smug:
 
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#12
Dang. I’m guessing that you were either using the smiley face mid-scooped eq, or just boosting the low end and not using an hpf. I have a Terror Bass 500, and two Orange 112’s, and I can’t imagine turning it up that loud. But my sound is midrange-oriented, and if we want deep lows, we have a subwoofer.

To be honest, I would refuse to play as loud as it sounds like you were playing.
 
#14
Hi,
You’ll probably find make and model information on the back of the speaker. You could call a place like the speaker exchange and purchase a recone kit. Likely cheaper than new drivers. I agree with other commenters that your problem is stage volume and meddling bandmates.

As to why they blew, I think the conversation about wattage ratings and ohms should be understood as a DYNAMIC, not static, because it is. Basically, ohm and wattage ratings are important and helpful for basic configuration, but understand that they are variable the whole time you’re playing. The reason for your failure was simply heat buildup. This can happen if you apply even rated wattage (current) and the sine waves are approaching square. RMS is an estimation of current based on a wave. The wattage varies at different points on the wave, so if you create a wave that is bigger, and approaching the “ceiling” and goes flat and wide, the average wattage of the wave can be higher than the average previously measured.

If the speaker has current applied to it, and the average is above the rated RMS, and it goes on long enough, it will overheat and blow. The actual output current of an amp, the current handling (in terms of heat over time) of a speaker, and the impedance of that speaker, vary widely and constantly during use. Speakers are typically rated for RMS (average) and peak power. A 500w RMS speaker is typically rated 1000w peak because at times, it briefly “sees” 1000w, and won’t overheat over time. If you gain up, you’re making a bigger sine wave, thereby increasing the average current flow over time.

You’re asking a speaker to physically push air molecules to your ears. If the molecules didn't get there in a comprehendible way, you may have exceeded the ability of the speaker to do so effectively, and more volume will only exacerbate the problem, as it’s technically failing louder, and thereby adding distortion and “clutter”, which adds to the problem. Ironically, hearing too much of yourself will make you not hear yourself. And fatigue your ears in the process.

I’d advise paying close attention to gain and eq, and only add or subtract the minimal amount necessary. Never set any gain or eq before plugging in! Zero at every gig, then adjust! Then set volume appropriate to the space. Then tell your bandmates to turn down.

I ran a power amp rated for 600w per side at 8 ohms into two 8 ohm 350w cabs for a decade. I used input sensitivity on the amp for volume setting. Today I use an amp rated for 1200w at 4 ohms into two 8 ohm cabs rated for 350 and 400 watts respectively.

Hope this helps
 
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#16
Just to clarify a common misconception, peak power is generally accepted to be twice the RMS power for an amp for exactly the same waveform. Peak power is essentially a completely marketing based term because the number is larger.

Peak power ratings for a speaker are usually expressed as 4 times the RMS value because it adds 3dB of crest factor to the waveform and then takes the peak value which only makes sense for undistorted, uncompressed waveform (which is not the case for musical instrument amplification) therefore this too falls into the marketing bs category imo.
 
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#17
2strings2frets said:
To put the sound in perspective, locomotive air horns are 110 dba. They are designed to get your attention inside a car with the windows rolled up and the radio blasting. In open air they can be heard miles away. In a closed room 130 dba,good luck.
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Air horns for rail applications are a different scenario, the federal transportation codes require a minimum of 96dBA at 100-400 feet depending on the application. In practice, at 1M with air losses factored in run ~136dBA (this is for SPL). This is well beyond the maximum SPL of any (or the vast majority of) commercial bass cabinet.
 
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#20
agedhorse said:
Just to clarify a common misconception, peak power is generally accepted to be twice the RMS power for an amp for exactly the same waveform. Peak power is essentially a completely marketing based term because the number is larger.

Peak power ratings for a speaker are usually expressed as 4 times the RMS value because it adds 3dB of crest factor to the waveform and then takes the peak value which only makes sense for undistorted, uncompressed waveform (which is not the case for musical instrument amplification) therefore this too falls into the marketing bs category imo.
Click to expand...
Yes, it’s complicated, and marketing makes it worse in my opinion. As a bassist, I think clarity is key, and not all amps and cabs are built the same. Seems to me that making a rig sound big at guitar center is the focus, and a detriment
 
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