Double Bass DB - Endpin socket question

[Auspis]

Hello this morning I examined my grand-father's double bass, the end pin, and I notice that it's not parallel to the instrument it has an angle. Clearly the wood was repaired previously as you can see in the picture, using strong glue. There is a reinforcement plate inside, looks stock, it looks in good condition, not cracks can be seen from the interior of the instrument.

However, it looks like a metallic sleeve tube is missing around the end pin socket and the pin is prying towards the front of the instrument.. It's all very stable, nothing moves, but..

How bad is this in your opinion? Is there a metallic sleeve missing around the end pin socket in your opinion?

The instrument was given to me like this.

Question #2: Can I clean this instrument with the Martin Cleaner/polish fluid, i still have some left or do I need a special violin cleaner/polish?

See the picture of that end pin socket.
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[DoubleMIDI]

There seems to be a big crack in the ribs around the endpin. The block the endpin sits in might have coming loose and the tailwire pulls the endpin assembly to the front.

I would consult a luthier soon to check that.

The only metal at my endpin assembly is the screw, the ring the screw goes in and the endpin itself. The endpin assembly into the hole in the block is wood on wood.

 

[Auspis]

There seems to be a big crack in the ribs around the endpin. The block the endpin sits in might have coming loose and the tailwire pulls the endpin assembly to the front.

I would consult a luthier soon to check that.

The only metal at my endpin assembly is the screw, the ring the screw goes in and the endpin itself. The endpin assembly into the hole in the block is wood on wood.

The cracks around the end pin these were all glued in the past, they are stable, nothing moves.. But obviously the socket of the end pin is smaller then the hole in the body, as if something was missing. But I don't know how these are made.

I made a drawing of what I believe is missing, just common sense but again, I don't really know.

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[fdeck]

In all likelihood the endpin is tapered, to fit a tapered hole. It's possible that it was replaced with one that's too small. It's a bit involved, but I think the most information will come from taking it apart. Before doing anything, carefully note the location of the soundpost. (A pencil on a stick or something like that). Then I'd lay the bass on a table, and weigh down the belly with something moderately heavy to keep the soundpost from falling, then loosen the strings and see if you can sneak the endpin out of there.

If the only problem is a difference in diameter, a common fix is to wrap the pin in a piece of sandpaper to expand it, and re-install. My old cello came that way, and has held up for decades.

If the hole is misshapen, it might need a trip to a luthier for a new endpin and installation.

The interior reinforcement plate is the tail block, and is probably a fairly substantial piece of wood. That block is bearing the brunt, as it were.

 

[Auspis]

In all likelihood the endpin is tapered, to fit a tapered hole. It's possible that it was replaced with one that's too small. It's a bit involved, but I think the most information will come from taking it apart. Before doing anything, carefully note the location of the soundpost. (A pencil on a stick or something like that). Then I'd lay the bass on a table, and weigh down the belly with something moderately heavy to keep the soundpost from falling, then loosen the strings and see if you can sneak the endpin out of there.

If the only problem is a difference in diameter, a common fix is to wrap the pin in a piece of sandpaper to expand it, and re-install. My old cello came that way, and has held up for decades.

If the hole is misshapen, it might need a trip to a luthier for a new endpin and installation.

The interior reinforcement plate is the tail block, and is probably a fairly substantial piece of wood. That block is bearing the brunt, as it were.

I am scared a bit to do it. But I like the Sand paper idea to fill in the gap.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

If sandpaper is too thick, just use normal paper. Might need a few separate layers since the endpin holder is tapered.
For sandpaper use the rough side facing the endpin holder and cover the whole length of the holder with it.
It is a common temporary solution that can survive decades.

The optimal solution is a bit more expensive. Either a new endpin with a thicker holder or filling the (tapered) hole with wood (drilling it open cylindrically and glue new wood in) and drill a new tapered hole that is smaller.

But check if the taper is the same on hoke and endpin holder. If it is not the same amount (reduction per length unit), it might be rather tricky to adapt with (sand-)paper and you better see a luthier for a new endpin assembly (with a thicker holder) and getting it fitted well. It is not a complicated job to make the hole wider, but the tool is a bit expensive.

 

[eh_train]

The endpin is poorly fit, and the best solution is to have it re-done. From your pics 1 and 2, it looks like the socket has already had extra wood added. It's possible to fix something like that, perhaps even just using paper shims, but a proper repair would start over with new wood. A metal sleeve isn't the right way to go, at all. Of the 100s of basses that have been through my shop, I have seen 0 (zero) metal sleeves.

You can upgrade to a much nicer endpin at the same time and, even if you get a super-duper, high-end titanium endpin, the repair should be under $500. Maybe half that if you choose a simple but well made endpin.

 

[Auspis]

@DoubleMIDI @eh_train Thanks for your help here, I am on the right track with this, now it's just a matter of taking actions for it. To be continued.

Poor fitting, that was my first impression too, poor craftsmanship...

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Might have been an emergency repair with what was available and never got the right thing later.

I ordered a carbon fiber endpin with assembly on AliExpress for approximately 25€, the diameter of the insert seemed to be rather large, but I’m away from home for 1 1/2 weeks, so I cannot measure. I took the one with a screwable ring because I didn’t know if the one with the thumb screw has an assembly that saves the carbon fiber rod from punctual damage.
The CF rod diameter was larger than my 10 mm steel rod, I would say at least 14 mm.
Haven’t tried if it fits my bass or not. Was cheap enough to resale if it doesn’t.

 

[Don Hergert]

In my experience the hardest part of replacing an old poorly working endpin plug (the socket part) was talking myself into spending $300-$400 on the endpin plug hand reamer tool in order to clean out and if necessary re-shape the tapered hole in the end block. I did purchase that tool -- it's a marvelously machined hand tool -- and I used it once. Then I re-homed it because at my age I'll never need to use one again. And I absolutely love the results of the work that that tool did. Despite only needing it once, if I had not purchased that reamer tool I would still be complaining about my ancient failing endpin assembly now.

A new endpin and endpin plug assembly costs relatively little and there are lots of different designs and materials to choose from. With the reamer tool it probably takes an hour or two to do the work and then re-setup your double bass, the re-setup being necessary because the endpin plug holds everything else together...

The only complicating exceptions would be (1) if the old endpin plug is glued in and has to be drilled out, which the reamer tool helps to facilitate nicely, or (2) if the end block itself has problems that need to be repaired first, which is possible with a visibly crooked endpin (and this would probably need a luthier's attention).

Btw, while doing or having this work done, this is an easy time to consider replacing the existing tailgut on the tailpiece.

 

[eh_train]

... talking myself into spending $300-$400 on the endpin plug hand reamer tool in order to clean out and if necessary re-shape the tapered hole in the end block. I did purchase that tool -- it's a marvelously machined hand tool -- and I used it once. Then I re-homed it ...

Don, very impressed with you DIY ethic, and glad it went well!

I often adopt the same "I can probably figure that out..." stance myself. Sometimes, though, it's just easier/cheaper/faster to have someone with experience do it...

 

[Don Hergert]

Sometimes, though, it's just easier/cheaper/faster to have someone with experience do it...

This actually would have been my preference. But, the only double bass luthier who I would have trusted to do this work on my Alcoa double bass lives 2,258.2 miles away in Asheville NC.

The ancient cracking endpin plug on my Alcoa was ready to go, something had to be done, and realistically DIY was my only option. I have been very happy with the way things worked out.

 

[BPM Strings]

The hole is too big and/or out of round. It is not critical to get fixed right away, you can try the sandpaper trick and it might fix it. Or you can have someone bush and redrill the hole, that is not a DIY solution tho. That is an Ulsa lightweight end pin, BTW. I consider those to be pretty good quality and yours seems to be in good shape. The piece you thought was missing never existed.

 

[Auspis]

Thanks again, I haven't taken any action yet for the end pin.

I'll investigate it myself for sure and decide after if I fix it myself, I'll post pictures of the condition. I don't know when i'll dig into that project! but it's all set to do eventually.

The bass has been in this condition for possibly close to 3 decades...

 

[Bruce Calin]

After reading the Chuck Traeger book I decided to go with a wooden endpin. I ordered one and on doing the installation saw that the old one had been shimmed with sandpaper! This had been done by a respected luthier so I figured I could do it, too. It's still holding up after 30+ years so I think I did okay.

 

[Auspis]

After reading the Chuck Traeger book I decided to go with a wooden endpin. I ordered one and on doing the installation saw that the old one had been shimmed with sandpaper! This had been done by a respected luthier so I figured I could do it, too. It's still holding up after 30+ years so I think I did okay.

That's cool, feel free to publish a picture of that wooden end pin, if you have time! I'd like to see it.

 

[Bruce Calin]

That's cool, feel free to publish a picture of that wooden end pin, if you have time! I'd like to see it.

I'll try with my computer challenged brain. Traeger's idea was that different woods gave different tone and volume, especially as compared to metal. I was never totally convinced of that but do feel my bass prefers wood.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

That's cool, feel free to publish a picture of that wooden end pin, if you have time! I'd like to see it.

My end pin is this. Fits perfectly in diameter for my assembly. This is ofcourse the other of the pair I bought. The one used in the bass is cut a bit to length.
I felt it gave the bass more response/mids than the original, much heavier metal end pin.
(Sorry for picture comming out upside down!)

 

[Auspis]

My end pin is this. Fits perfectly in diameter for my assembly. This is ofcourse the other of the pair I bought. The one used in the bass is cut a bit to length.
I felt it gave the bass more response/mids than the original, much heavier metal end pin.
(Sorry for picture comming out upside down!)

LOL are you kidding me?. I've got a pair of Bolero sticks right here, i hate these sticks!! they would make a good end pin.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

LOL are you kidding me?. I've got a pair of Bolero sticks right here, i hate these sticks!! they would make a good end pin.

No kidding. I suppose an endpin could use a bit more stiffness than ones prefered drum sticks...
I chose it beause: A: its diameter fits snuggly into the assembly, which I am pretty certain is beneficial for function and sound. And B: the description of it on the (Thomann) website, which was something like "crisp". I am pretty sure you do not want some soft material "sucking up" sound. Anyway I was not going to fall into the mouse trap of trying 5 different wood types, carbon fiber, titanium etc...