Double Bass DB technique

[LouisF]

No comments on either of the jazz players (not my field) but... this was interesting:

"
Great finnish bassist and composer Teppo Hauta-aho uses a version of this, as his left hand thumb tendons got messed up in an operation in the 80`s. His thumb is not around the neck, but on the back of it pointing upwards."

After my neck surgery in 2015 (pins in 5 of 7 vertebrae) the only way I could get my left hand to work was with the thumb on the back, pointing upwards. Maybe there's something neurological in this??

 

[Joshua]

Well, he has his fans!

I guess, but I'd hardly call myself a fan as I only own one recording from him and do not seek out his playing. I just liked that cut, and fail to see where his technique weakened the music in any way.

In truth, I just didn't see why a discussion about technique needed to descend into cheap shots at an artist or their music. I have no problem with anyone critiquing his technique (where critique is due).

 

[damonsmith]

I guess, but I'd hardly call myself a fan as I only own one recording from him and do not seek out his playing. I just liked that cut, and fail to see where his technique weakened the music in any way.

In truth, I just didn't see why a discussion about technique needed to descend into cheap shots at an artist or their music. I have no problem with anyone critiquing his technique (where critique is due).

I didn't bring up his name, but once it comes up, it is a rare case where we need to make a hard distinction between Charlie Haden and Allison. Allison is clearly a virtuoso administrator. He has done quite well for himself and I am sure he is well aware of his choices around the instrument. He is unfortunately a clear example of what poor technique can get you. He sounds like a great guitarist who just picked up the bass for the first time - he has no sound. The rub is he doesn't seem to care.
It is fine for him to get all those gigs and (sadly) even a teaching position. What he needs is to not get any credit for what he is doing on the instrument from bass players talking about the instrument.
With two Lee Konitz albums under his belt and hundreds festivals I am sure it is a small price to pay.

 

[Joshua]

What he needs is to not get any credit for what he is doing on the instrument from bass players talking about the instrument.

I'm afraid I will simply have to disappoint you then, as I will freely give him praise for both his playing and his music, at least that which I have heard.

 

[damonsmith]

I'm afraid I will simply have to disappoint you then, as I will freely give him praise for both his playing and his music, at least that which I have heard.

Most ballgames are lost, not won.

 

[Joshua]

You got that right. I lost this one handily at post 17.

 

[Clef_de_fa]

This guy to me is really a master

 

[turf3]

So I am not going to change my mind on Mr. hump the bass, but what's wrong with Dockers, anyway? We can't all be slim whippet-like guys with no butt and pipe cleaner legs. For the traditionally built middle aged guy who's been riding bikes hard and extensively for 45 years, but who also likes beer, pizza, and brownies, any kind of pants that have a term like "slim fit" in them just ain't gonna do it. Back in the 70s I used to routinely rip pants out from stem to stern from doing exotic things like bending over to pick up a nickel I dropped on the floor. When pleated pants were finally offered again in the early 80s, I shouted "Hallelujah!" AND I AM NEVER GOING BACK. Room for my boys, that's what I require, and that's what "old fat guy pants" like Dockers offer me.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

In truth, I just didn't see why a discussion about technique needed to descend into cheap shots at an artist or their music. I have no problem with anyone critiquing his technique (where critique is due).

^^^^This. Despite centuries of repeated attempts to the contrary, no one can scientifically prove that cutting off the feet of another makes the axe-wielder even a millimeter taller.

I hope that we, as a collective forum, can do better than trash talking our bass brethren who are out there making the music that moves them. Tearing down is so much easier than building, but only building is constructive.

 

[damonsmith]

^^^^This. Despite centuries of repeated attempts to the contrary, no one can scientifically prove that cutting off the feet of another makes the axe-wielder even a millimeter taller.

I hope that we, as a collective forum, can do better than trash talking our bass brethren who are out there making the music that moves them. Tearing down is so much easier than building, but only building is constructive.

I am not going to accept the "trash-talking" swipe. The apathy he shows toward the instrument is what makes his work offensive. When someone like this is lionized as good player, something needs to be said.
I worked for years at warehouse with a heavy playing schedule and kept up my technique. There is no excuse for professional musician to let it go to that degree. We can all do better than that.
To be clear, it is less the lack of technique that offends me. It is the fact that he projects no love or interest in the instrument with his work. It even comes off as outright disdain for the instrument.

Bass technique is a choice, unless there is a medical issue as mentioned with the the great Teppa Hauta aho, who still maintains a high playing standard:

 

[damonsmith]

I wear Dockers for the same reasons! Though Polo cords are doing better for me this winter. Still, neither one would use my music for their ads, that is for sure.

So I am not going to change my mind on Mr. hump the bass, but what's wrong with Dockers, anyway? We can't all be slim whippet-like guys with no butt and pipe cleaner legs. For the traditionally built middle aged guy who's been riding bikes hard and extensively for 45 years, but who also likes beer, pizza, and brownies, any kind of pants that have a term like "slim fit" in them just ain't gonna do it. Back in the 70s I used to routinely rip pants out from stem to stern from doing exotic things like bending over to pick up a nickel I dropped on the floor. When pleated pants were finally offered again in the early 80s, I shouted "Hallelujah!" AND I AM NEVER GOING BACK. Room for my boys, that's what I require, and that's what "old fat guy pants" like Dockers offer me.

 

[Reiska]

No comments on either of the jazz players (not my field) but... this was interesting:

"
Great finnish bassist and composer Teppo Hauta-aho uses a version of this, as his left hand thumb tendons got messed up in an operation in the 80`s. His thumb is not around the neck, but on the back of it pointing upwards."

After my neck surgery in 2015 (pins in 5 of 7 vertebrae) the only way I could get my left hand to work was with the thumb on the back, pointing upwards. Maybe there's something neurological in this??

Teppo Hauta-aho has some nerval damage in his left hand if I recall. He plays still beautifully but I`ve understood, heard and seen that he doesn`t like to get too loud anymore. The man is 76 years now, and still going strong.

 

[Michael Karn]

something needs to be said

Yeah, or in this case, said and said and said...

 

[damonsmith]

Yeah, or in this case, said and said and said...

Agreed, and sorry for the repetition. Clearly, this one hits a nerve with me.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I am not going to accept the "trash-talking" swipe.

I didn't think of it as a "swipe". I thought of it as an observation similar to your observations about the player under discussion:

The apathy he shows toward the instrument is what makes his work offensive. When someone like this is lionized as good player, something needs to be said.
I worked for years at warehouse with a heavy playing schedule and kept up my technique. There is no excuse for professional musician to let it go to that degree. We can all do better than that.
To be clear, it is less the lack of technique that offends me. It is the fact that he projects no love or interest in the instrument with his work. It even comes off as outright disdain for the instrument.

...he just seems like he couldn't care less about the bass in every case when I've given his music a chance. His playing is adequate at best. I don't have any issues publicly criticizing a person that basically just blows off the instrument all together.

There is no commitment in his playing at all.

Since neither of us is psychic, we'll both have to admit that our observations reflect our take on the actions of another person who might not agree with our assessment. You don't have to accept what you perceive as a swipe from me any more than Ben Allison has to accept your assessment of his commitment to the bass above. As for the rest, I stand by my comments except for my use of the term "trash-talking". After a little research on terminology, I would revise that to use the term "****-talking" instead. Since by the site rules I am not allowed to link to anything containing profanity, I have run the urban dictionary result through a beta version of the TB profanity filter. The results can be viewed by clicking on the thumbnail below :

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

As for the Dockers comments, I'm afraid I don't get where that is going. Are they for young folks, or older folks? Just pointing out that it is possible to be in mid-50's middle age geezerhood and still be built largely like Mr. Allison, whether one wears "slim fit" pants or not. Not sure what "Dockers" has to do with this discussion... are we judging the intent of players by the fit of their clothes now?

 

[damonsmith]

I do think it is good to have limits to what we should accept as both listeners and as working on a common project (the bass). I don't think it is bad for us to have playing standards.
As Walter says, "it is about drawing a line in the sand, dude, across this line you do not...".

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I wouldn't argue with any of that in principle. OTOH, we should remember that those lines are drawn in sand... and sand is malleable.

Taking only Rabbath, Edgar Meyer, and Quarrington into account, they were able to forge ahead with techniques which flew in the face of conventional wisdom (i.e. - lines in the pedagogical sand) to create something new which worked not only for them, but also opened doors for other bassists as well. As I said before, I don't use the "baseball bat" technique myself, but if I found myself in a situation where it was the best option to make the music happen, I would use it. I discovered at ISB this year and directly after that I have stumbled on a fair amount of Quarrington's pedagogical technique without even knowing that's what it was.... likewise with Rabbath's "crab" technique and, I recently also discovered in an amazing master class, Hal Robinson's "thumbage" concept and his thoughts on "push bars" and "pull bars". At the point of these discoveries, I can then delve into their master-level takes on these things and benefit from their experience and wisdom. Had I not been open to experimenting with these things, I might have rejected them before I ever "discovered" them.

The point is, if we adopt a rigorous methodology and it helps us, it's all good. But if we summarily reject anything that lies outside of that methodology on the ideological grounds that they are not "in the box" that we already possess, we are limiting the potential for innovative discovery. We should instead (IMO, of course) try things for ourselves and make up our own minds.

 

[damonsmith]

There is a huge difference between refining the technique we have to be more efficient and understanding clearly that is the goal. Using unorthodox techniques to get specific new sounds is another thing still.
Totally blowing off conventional technique to end up awkwardly playing very conventional material with a weaker sound and less accuracy needs to be called what it is.
If there is something people find to like in the music after all that, it is anyone's right - I like all kinds of weird music.

 

[turf3]

As for the Dockers comments, I'm afraid I don't get where that is going. Are they for young folks, or older folks? Just pointing out that it is possible to be in mid-50's middle age geezerhood and still be built largely like Mr. Allison, whether one wears "slim fit" pants or not. Not sure what "Dockers" has to do with this discussion... are we judging the intent of players by the fit of their clothes now?

The Dockers comment came when Damon said the Ben Allison thing sounded like a Dockers commercial. I was attempting - apparently unsuccessfully - to introduce a note of self-deprecating humor by declaring my allegiance to the "old fat guy's pants". Yes, I know it's also possible to be middle aged and scrawny. I didn't notice whether Allison is or isn't scrawny, medium, or "traditionally built".