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Deal gone bad: a reality check, please

#41
I had a similar experience that was a little more straightforward.

Purchased a Ric 4003 on ebay. Showed up and bridge pickup just did not work. Called the seller on it and they denied everything. Filed w/ ebay and they ponied up $100 to cover the local shop replacing the pickup.

So I would check out any coverage / buyer protection from ebay first.
 
#42
Sounds like the only potential mistake you made was opening this yourself, and not taking it to a guitar tech to have it checked out. If the seller is seizing on the fact that you opened the control cavity and did what amounts to a visual inspection that would probably be enough to get my spidey sense tingling.... If you otherwise like the bass, I'd take it to a tech, have it evaluated, and get a firm understanding of exactly what the problem is, and everything that it will take to fix it. At that point make your decision if you'd rather fight it out with the seller, or just get it fixed. I have a friend who bought a paddleboard with what turned out to be a damaged vent plug, and he ended up recovering the repair cost....
 
#43
It's not like he took apart a brand new TV to void a warranty the seller was extending. It's a used bass and should be subject to inspection, control cavity and all. If you can diagnose the specific problem, you may be able to determine the exact cause. But only you can decide if its worth fighting for.
 
#44
First, how likely is it that an electrical problem like this can happen during the shipping process?

Highly unlikely. Assuming your diagnosis is a bad pickup, even more unlikely. My first guess would be bad battery or disconnected battery, or, if the pre is on a circuit board, it dislodged and either broke off a wire or a trace was broken, like where a wire is soldered to the board. I would take a magnifying glass to the wiring, and look for broken or cold solder connections. Is the battery secured in a clamp, or is it flopping around loose in the compartment?

Second, in the process of trouble-shooting the problem, once the pickup became suspect, I had removed the panel to the electronics cavity and took a reading with my multimeter. I'm not an EE, but I've been an electronics hobbyist for years (retrocomputing and vintage arcade games, mostly). Being cautious and inexperienced with troubleshooting these things, I was guided over the phone by my instructor who is also a guitar tech. Because of this invasive method of diagnosis, the seller is now claiming that the bass is no longer in its original condition, and thus he shouldn't be held responsible for it. (Never mind the fact that that the problem existed before I did this.)

Sorry, you did not do anything wrong, except to assume that a multi would diagnose a bad pickup. The only real way to diagnose a bad pickup is to disconnect then test it for resistance. The cheap buy effective way is to tap lightly on the pick up with something metal, like a screwdriver. Basically what you tried to do is the equivalent of trying to test a resistor in circuit. Your defense to his dodge is that it may have well been that the battery died in transit, or was shaken loose from its terminal, so, you would have to open the bass to check that out. BTW, did you check to make sure the 9v is getting to the circuit board? You should trace that from the battery, and do a continuity, both + and -.

So, given the dodgy state of the sale, did I cross the line?

No. But the problem is that a bad pickup has to be tested out of circuit, and that's the rub. If it were me, I would be looking for cold solder joints, or broken wiring first. Does the bass have a passive mode? Some basses, you can plug the 1/4" cable in half way, and get a weak, but passive signal, which would then eliminate the Pick up. But my 2 cent opinion is I doubt it's the pickup itself.
 
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#46
A somewhat similar situation I had - I helped a friend find a Dean DM Zero Angel of Deth II (he's a huge fun of Megadeth, and also of guitars with graphic prints on them, it seems). We eventually found one for a really good price on eBay, used. The condition was listed as new-other, and supposedly the guitar had been dropped in the box and chipped off a small piece of the body, which was shown in pictures. My friend was cool with that damage, and he bid on it, getting the whole thing with shipping for about $175.

He received the guitar and a string was missing and he freaked out a little bit. He isn't even remotely oriented towards that type of thing, so I told him to calm down, I'd restring it, it wasn't a big deal. So, I go to pick it up from him and the tuning buttons weren't on the tuning machines, it appeared that the threads to screw them onto the machines were stripped out. There were two holes drilled into the back of the guitar body for some purpose I don't know. The neck had severe bow where someone had basically loosened the truss rod pretty much as far as it would go. The fretboard was horribly grimey and had salt stains where someone had been playing it while sweating.

I typed up the e-mail to the seller for him, and I basically stated the condition the seller stated the item was in, new-other, and that it should have been listed as for parts or not working. I also stated that the stains on the fretboard prove it wasn't new and unplayed like the seller stated, then called them on how their pictures of the item seemed to conceal the other damage that wasn't mentioned in the listing. Then I mentioned the price of a set of strings and direct replacement of the tuning machines that come new on that model, and the average price to have a luthier install them and adjust the neck, etc. I asked the seller for $75 and that would leave us paying for the luthier out of our pocket and the seller actually apologized and agreed to pay back $95 instead, and said that he didn't personally inspect the guitar, an employee did, it was a misunderstanding, etc.

I got a set of locking tuners on eBay for under $30 USD, and installed them and changed the strings, then did some truss rod adjustments and cleaned the fretboard with some lemon oil. We filled the holes drilled in the back with some glue/filler from the hardware store. The guitar plays amazing for the $110 my friend ended up spending on ity at the end of the day. That is honestly the worst interaction I've had buying off of eBay, which I've used for about 10 years, and I buy at least half a dozen guitars, basses or amps a year on there.
 
#47
Invasive to open up a bass control panel???! Bad vibes IMO. And the bass may now have bad juju since it came from someone that thinks this way. I would send it back and file a dispute with ebay. Personally I want a pleasant experience when purchasing an instrument, otherwise a true bond with the bass cannot be established. Sorry if I sound too "hippy" but thats my 2 cents.
 
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#48
Big Brother said:
I'm waiting for the conversation to inevitably turn on the OP and blame him for the entire transaction. :blackeye:[/QUOT
Oh- it's coming, you know it!
1932345_758845724188448_937495731588445139_n.jpg
Click to expand...
 
#49
Trust me eBay will side with you no matter what you did.I understand your point and the sellers point as well. If the seller has more than a hundred transactions and is 98% or more with his feedback chances are it was working when it left his house crazy things happen. I would check his feedback to see if anyone else has had a similar problem with the seller?. If I were the seller I would split the difference of the repair cost i think that is resonable.I know one thing I would have never done is told him I opened it up for any reason it sends an obvious red flag to the seller. I hope it works out for you.
 
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#51
Jake72 said:
Sounds like the only potential mistake you made was opening this yourself, and not taking it to a guitar tech to have it checked out. .... If you otherwise like the bass, I'd take it to a tech, have it evaluated, and get a firm understanding of exactly what the problem is, and everything that it will take to fix it. At that point make your decision if you'd rather fight it out with the seller, or just get it fixed.....
Click to expand...

+1 to this. If you are not happy with the bass, open a claim with eBay, return it and get your refund. Don't look back and don't waste any more energy on this.

If you got a decent deal on it and think you may want to keep it, there is only one thing to do. Do you have a reputable repair shop in your area? Maybe Gibson or Fender certified? Take the bass to them and get it evaluated. Have the tech state, in writing, exactly what he or she found. If it is a loose wire, dead battery or similar easy fix, pay for it, keep the bass and send the seller an explanation/apology. Any of these things may well have happened in transit. Conversely, if it is a dead pickup, send the seller the written finding by the tech and demand a refund as there is just no way a pickup goes dead in transit. Nor, is it likely that you could have killed the pickup by poking around the cavity with your meter. If the pickup is dead, the seller knew (or should have known) about it before he or she shipped it and they owe you a replacement.

My 2 cents.
 
#53
Invasive[in-vey-siv]

adjective

1.characterized by or involving Link Removed; offensive: invasive war.
2.Link Removed, or tending to Link Removed; intrusive.
3.Medicine/Medical. requiring the entry of a needle, catheter, or other instrument into a part of the body, especially in a diagnostic procedure,as a biopsy.

Above from dictionary.com
Bold by author.


Invasive is a scary sounding word. However, it is the correct word in this instance. Almost every diagnostic or repair procedure is by nature invasive. Removing a control cover is an invasive procedure. It is compounded by the use of a tool, in this case a multimeter. The fact that the tool is not destructive is not germane to the argument. That is a matter of degrees. Degree does not apply here. Once the cover is removed, the invasion has occurred.

Most of the folks who read this forum are by nature inquisitive. Most understand that removing and replacing a control cavity cover is minimally invasive, a normal troubleshooting procedure. That thinking is correct. But it is an extremely small percentage of guitar players think that way. Can you blame them? There are electrical components or electronics in there. That is scary stuff. They do not know the difference between a potentiometer from a jack. If they do, they know that it is soldered together and that is something they don’t know how to do, best left to a professional.

It is worse with the non-guitar playing populous.

A story from the shop:

A number of years ago we sold a brand new Major Brand guitar to a college student. It worked fine. But a few weeks later it developed an intermittent output problem. We put it on the bench for diagnosis. It was a cold solder joint at the jack. It took longer for the soldering iron to come up to temp than to do the repair from cover off to cover on. We allowed him to stand at the bench and then proceeded to do an all points check of the rest of the instrument. The young man was happy. A couple of days later his father stopped in took us to task for the way we handled the incident. He felt that we should have provided a new guitar for his son, since the guitar in his possession had a defect and might develop other problems. We declined his offer. From a repair standpoint it was a ridiculous request. However, from a retail standpoint, it would have been the right thing to do. The father never purchased another thing from us. Almost certainly he told anyone who would listen to never do business with us because we were “rip off artists.” It would have cost the store a few dollars but would have restored our reputation in his eyes.

When something purchased does not function as advertised, the correct procedure is to first notify the vendor. Ask the vendor how they would like to proceed. The purchaser can make suggestions such as taking it to a local tech for troubleshooting. Or in the case of an experienced hand, do the troubleshoot themselves. It is the vendor’s option to decide how the rest of the sale will be handled. That protects both parties against fraud or the illusion of fraud. That decision may not please either parties.

The sale is not over until both parties are satisfied. Satisfaction may not be “satisfying” to either or both parties. That is the risk in arm’s length transactions. There is always a suspicion that one or both parties may have an agenda that is not above board. When the buyer takes action independent of notice, it is a vendor’s knee jerk, but natural, reaction to assume that something is amiss. Because of this, they will act to protect their interest.

Logic, sadly, is not part of this argument. This is all about how people feel. Just as many here feel that the word “invasive” is too strong or incorrect.
 
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#54
Unfortunately some customers are unreasonable. Some are just inclined that way (A**holes) and others are ignorant and believe that everything should be perfect all the time or they should get a new one.

My read on this:

- There is no likelihood that the OP could have damaged a pickup by checking it. Because that's the fault, he could not have caused it.
- Ebay's customer satisfaction process is indeed pretty good. I don't know if it would allow you to request a price reduction, but if not, then your only option would probably be to return the bass.
- Since it sounds like the OP doesn't want to return it, eat the pickup and go on with life.
 
#56
I don't see what you did as evasive. Had a similar situation a loonngg time ago on ebay with a Rockman Distortion unit. It did work out of the box. the seller tried to blame it on everything but himself, I filed both an ebay and PP issue with it, and the seller took the unit back. I suspect that the unit may have worked when he shipped it, and some electronic part that was suspect finally bit the dust during shipping. Just moving things around can loosen a bad solder joint, etc.

I had a another similar issue where I just fixed the thing myself, because it was cheaper to do so than to ship the bass back. Basically a pot had been replaced and the wiring harness was incorrectly wired. Fixed that, and that bass is still going strong.

had a few other incidences like this where I just fixed the issue, mostly fixing incompetency

anyway, in this case, depending on the value of the bass, etc, I would either just fix it or do everything I can to get the seller to refund, and send it back. If it's a pickup, I could probably find a good used pickup for about $40-60 and fix it myself, but then I would be tempted to buy a set, and just sell the remaining pickups back on ebay with full disclosure of what works and what doesn't
 
#60
Whew, that's tough. One of those situations where no one can really prove anything, so it's up to the honor of both parties to sort it out. I like the idea of having it professionally inspected/troubleshot, because hopefully if the seller's telling the truth, then something like a dislodged wire is more likely than a truly bad pickup. If the seller won't cooperate at all, probably best to go with the outcome you can best live with/most want, separate from any concern you have about what the seller wants.
 
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