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Dealing With A Would-Be BL

You are in tough spot! G isn't use to be tied to a set arrangement or used to working with others, who are experienced band members. As others have said, get ready to pull plug, if he continues to act in this manner, even if you have a band meeting.
The originals band that I play had a hard time getting going when we first got together. Both the drummer and I have been in a number of bands but the BL and the other guitar player had not. Fortunately, the drummer and I were able to get the BL to focus on getting his songs tightened up, which included how the verse and chorus should be place, getting a good groove that gave the songs some life, etc. When we did record, we were able to knock out a dozen songs over a couple of sessions.
If you guys paying for studio time and are fighting over the arrangements, you are wasting money!
 
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This sounds a lot like a band I'm in.Here's how the drummer and I fixed it. We gave up on the idea of the songs being fixed. We recorded a bunch of the guitarist/singer/songwriters songs, and mixed a few good takes. We then played out a lot. After time the songs became more fixed, but still had the looseness the guitarist wanted. It's not perfect, but what is? I don't know if this will work in your situation. I hope this was helpful.
 
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If I were in this situation, I would try to focus on the process, not the person, in order to keep personalities out of it. The OP said that G had been OK up until this point, so perhaps some clarity around what needs to be done would allow him to relax in a situation he's not very familiar with.

The band had agreed to a certain song arrangement, then decided it was a candidate for recording. If, while recording, a lot of changes get introduced, then it should no longer be considered 'done', thereby losing its candidacy for recording. At that point, the band should move on to the next recording candidate. If everyone agrees to this process before the recording session, then no one can argue about it at the time. If changes need to be made, do so after the current arrangement is in the can and everyone can weigh in on what should or shouldn't be changed. Keep the process simple, clear and mutually agreed to, so that personalities should not be a major factor.

Of course, if the guy really is a diva and was just hiding it up until now, the above may all be moot...

My $0.02
 
I wonder if G is looking at you as "just the bass player" and D as "just the drummer," i.e., two guys he hired to help him out and from whom he really doesn't want any creative input. If that's the case, you'll save yourself a lot of hassle by leaving now. I doubt G is going to change.

Otherwise, seems to me your only resolution would be for a third party, such as a real producer, who could advise on arrangements, etc, without being in the band. A good producer will mediate a lot of different creative voices.
 
All of the issues we had today came back to one of two things - inexperience in the band setting (working with others) and ego (not listening to others, not centering and getting down to work when things aren't perfect).

There may well be a third "issue" in there too - fear. He's been doing covers, but this sounds like it's his first time doing his own stuff.

Probably don't remind him you and drummer are both very experienced, that may be interpreted as condescending - and much more likely to be if he's feeling tense etc.

I'd lay it out in an email, then sit on the email for a day or so - fire it over to the drummer and see what they've got to say. When the email's fired off, give him another day or so, then call - be conciliatory, but do be firm with what you are/aren't willing to do/put up with.

At the end of the day though, if he won't play nice you need to find something else.

Good luck
 
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Every rehersal should be recorded; cell phones work great, or an inexpensive TASCAM.
^^^ is study material for homework/practice. IMO, once the basic foundation(s) can be played, adjust as needed/desired...and record it again.
United front is best...face-to-face preferred.
Fine line between massaging/shepherding, and kissing/caving.
Sand bagging/sabotaging? Smell ya.
Good luck.
 
Gather round the forum, TB'ers, this one's fun! (And please, forgive the length of the yarn)

G is a guitar player (blues, fairly skilled) and singer (soul, nice voice) who has spent the last ten years working as a solo act in bars and small venues, player cover sets and making a little money for his trouble. We started this project because he wanted to actually play out the original stuff he's been writing and stashing over that time frame.

Our drummer is a very technically proficient guy with a quiet attitude. He's not the type to tell you off, but he is the type to shrug off anything he feels is unnecessary or unhelpful. In that respect he's both easy and difficult- if you speak the language, he'll do whatever you want. If you don't speak the language, you're not going to get anywhere. FWIW, I'm more or less in this category too. I'm a grown man and a grown bass player; I'm a team player but do need to be given some space to do my thing or I'm not going to be able to give my best work.

G wants to be a BL but has never been in a band. D and I are both pros in the respect that we don't need a heavy hand or a lot of direction - play the track, give us the feel you want and we'll knock it down. We're on time, we're rehearsed, we're level headed and open communicators in the room, all that good stuff. So far the experience and patience from D and I (we're both at or over the ten year marker) have made G's lack of experience as a BL a non-issue.

We have a list of songs we've been working on, and have had the limitation of being too jammy. We show up, warm up and then work on songs and the songs never seem to stick to an arrangement because G won't nail anything down. Last week D took the initiative and walked us through arrangements for two songs. I believe wholeheartedly that was a necessary step, and had refrained from doing so because I didn't want to have to deal with a potential headache (that's on me). We played them and liked how they sounded, I sent out an email with the arrangements written down so we could look it over and discuss/ lock it in, everything is good. The goal for practice this week is to record those arrangements so we can have something to work with.

Well.

Guys.

That didn't work out.

G went from being a talented performer and inexperienced BL to a complete diva. At the mere mention of recordings he started getting flustered and making excuses and just generally caving under pressure. This is after multiple mentions in email/ text/ phone calls that we want to get a low-key working recording for our own purposes. After a brief "disagreement" in which D and G talked right past each other about how to record ('I want to do A,' 'hey that's great, I love it, let's do B,' 'okay then, A it is,' 'Awesome, here goes B') our whole practice got shot to sh*t. I drove 3 hours through an ice storm for a two and a half hour practice in which we couldn't even nail down one good take, because G and D couldn't get theirs heads out of the G D buts long enough to get something to stick.

To make matters worse, as soon as things starting going in a direction G didn't like, he started to try and completely re-work the arrangement through incremental changes, and I have reason to believe he did it as a form of sabotage. Instead of taking the time to stop things, address what he wanted and make wholesale changes, he would stop the song, make one change, stop again, make another change and so on and so forth until nothing was the same as the original arrangement and I was obligated to write a new line on the fly. This was doubly frustrating because we have already spent weeks dialing this song in and after last practice the consensus was that is was done and ready to record. D and I both suggested, in light of how poorly things were going, that we should move on to another song and get our wind back. No dice. G kept bringing it back to the one song we couldn't agree on.

Things in the room got tense and unproductive, so I called practice (used some hand/wrist pain issues as an excuse). I don't like doing that, but my experience says that when you're over two hours of working time and still stuck in the same rut, it's time to call it a day. I called D after and talked it over and we're on the same page with regards to G - he's got the music side of things, but he needs to step up in his non-music skills if he wants this thing to work. All of the issues we had today came back to one of two things - inexperience in the band setting (working with others) and ego (not listening to others, not centering and getting down to work when things aren't perfect).

Here's the ask - how would you go about dealing with G? My plan as of right now is to call him up and talk with him about being in a band as opposed to being a solo act and to remind him that D and I are highly skilled volunteers who really don't need the hassle of a BL who doesn't know what he's doing. What I'm unsure of is whether it would better to try and coach him into being a better BL, or to convince him to step away from the admin side of that role and stick more to songwriting. Coaching him up is easier on his ego but requires more effort and patience on my part, convincing him to step back is a harder sell that (if successful) could lead to immediate resolution of the issue. I'm not about being in a 'drama' band (been there, done that), so I'm comfortable with resolving or quitting and stealing the drummer.
A band that can't rehearse effectively will never improve. I'd cut and run.
 
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I was in a project once with a guitarist that had played cruise ships for twenty years as a solo act. Nice guy, good player, etc. but not a band guitarist. Wound up firing the guy. For twenty years he played to "his" tempo and "his" arrangement and "his" licks. He wasn't capable of being in a band. Couldn't play a solo to save his life. I would hire him in a minute to be a solo act but not as a band member.

First - record every rehearsal and then listen to the recordings!

There could be many reasons why G is acting the way he is. Just don't forget, he may be in over his head and doesn't know how to handle it.









Or maybe his azz just needs firing.
 
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Gather round the forum, TB'ers, this one's fun! (And please, forgive the length of the yarn)

G is a guitar player (blues, fairly skilled) and singer (soul, nice voice) who has spent the last ten years working as a solo act in bars and small venues, player cover sets and making a little money for his trouble. We started this project because he wanted to actually play out the original stuff he's been writing and stashing over that time frame.

Our drummer is a very technically proficient guy with a quiet attitude. He's not the type to tell you off, but he is the type to shrug off anything he feels is unnecessary or unhelpful. In that respect he's both easy and difficult- if you speak the language, he'll do whatever you want. If you don't speak the language, you're not going to get anywhere. FWIW, I'm more or less in this category too. I'm a grown man and a grown bass player; I'm a team player but do need to be given some space to do my thing or I'm not going to be able to give my best work.

G wants to be a BL but has never been in a band. D and I are both pros in the respect that we don't need a heavy hand or a lot of direction - play the track, give us the feel you want and we'll knock it down. We're on time, we're rehearsed, we're level headed and open communicators in the room, all that good stuff. So far the experience and patience from D and I (we're both at or over the ten year marker) have made G's lack of experience as a BL a non-issue.

We have a list of songs we've been working on, and have had the limitation of being too jammy. We show up, warm up and then work on songs and the songs never seem to stick to an arrangement because G won't nail anything down. Last week D took the initiative and walked us through arrangements for two songs. I believe wholeheartedly that was a necessary step, and had refrained from doing so because I didn't want to have to deal with a potential headache (that's on me). We played them and liked how they sounded, I sent out an email with the arrangements written down so we could look it over and discuss/ lock it in, everything is good. The goal for practice this week is to record those arrangements so we can have something to work with.

Well.

Guys.

That didn't work out.

G went from being a talented performer and inexperienced BL to a complete diva. At the mere mention of recordings he started getting flustered and making excuses and just generally caving under pressure. This is after multiple mentions in email/ text/ phone calls that we want to get a low-key working recording for our own purposes. After a brief "disagreement" in which D and G talked right past each other about how to record ('I want to do A,' 'hey that's great, I love it, let's do B,' 'okay then, A it is,' 'Awesome, here goes B') our whole practice got shot to sh*t. I drove 3 hours through an ice storm for a two and a half hour practice in which we couldn't even nail down one good take, because G and D couldn't get theirs heads out of the G D buts long enough to get something to stick.

To make matters worse, as soon as things starting going in a direction G didn't like, he started to try and completely re-work the arrangement through incremental changes, and I have reason to believe he did it as a form of sabotage. Instead of taking the time to stop things, address what he wanted and make wholesale changes, he would stop the song, make one change, stop again, make another change and so on and so forth until nothing was the same as the original arrangement and I was obligated to write a new line on the fly. This was doubly frustrating because we have already spent weeks dialing this song in and after last practice the consensus was that is was done and ready to record. D and I both suggested, in light of how poorly things were going, that we should move on to another song and get our wind back. No dice. G kept bringing it back to the one song we couldn't agree on.

Things in the room got tense and unproductive, so I called practice (used some hand/wrist pain issues as an excuse). I don't like doing that, but my experience says that when you're over two hours of working time and still stuck in the same rut, it's time to call it a day. I called D after and talked it over and we're on the same page with regards to G - he's got the music side of things, but he needs to step up in his non-music skills if he wants this thing to work. All of the issues we had today came back to one of two things - inexperience in the band setting (working with others) and ego (not listening to others, not centering and getting down to work when things aren't perfect).

Here's the ask - how would you go about dealing with G? My plan as of right now is to call him up and talk with him about being in a band as opposed to being a solo act and to remind him that D and I are highly skilled volunteers who really don't need the hassle of a BL who doesn't know what he's doing. What I'm unsure of is whether it would better to try and coach him into being a better BL, or to convince him to step away from the admin side of that role and stick more to songwriting. Coaching him up is easier on his ego but requires more effort and patience on my part, convincing him to step back is a harder sell that (if successful) could lead to immediate resolution of the issue. I'm not about being in a 'drama' band (been there, done that), so I'm comfortable with resolving or quitting and stealing the drummer.
What exactly do you hope to gain from this "band"? That would be helpful to know. Sounds like it is a go-nowhere type situation anyhow.
 
Wait a minute, he's an experienced blues player and singer, but he's NEVER been in a band? To my old school, hard knocks way of thinking, those two do not compute.

This will not get better. You and D are not going to teach him or give him the musician cred he lacks. (And I'll bet he's really not that good either...)
 
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Gather round the forum, TB'ers, this one's fun! (And please, forgive the length of the yarn)

G is a guitar player (blues, fairly skilled) and singer (soul, nice voice) who has spent the last ten years working as a solo act in bars and small venues, player cover sets and making a little money for his trouble. We started this project because he wanted to actually play out the original stuff he's been writing and stashing over that time frame.

Our drummer is a very technically proficient guy with a quiet attitude. He's not the type to tell you off, but he is the type to shrug off anything he feels is unnecessary or unhelpful. In that respect he's both easy and difficult- if you speak the language, he'll do whatever you want. If you don't speak the language, you're not going to get anywhere. FWIW, I'm more or less in this category too. I'm a grown man and a grown bass player; I'm a team player but do need to be given some space to do my thing or I'm not going to be able to give my best work.

G wants to be a BL but has never been in a band. D and I are both pros in the respect that we don't need a heavy hand or a lot of direction - play the track, give us the feel you want and we'll knock it down. We're on time, we're rehearsed, we're level headed and open communicators in the room, all that good stuff. So far the experience and patience from D and I (we're both at or over the ten year marker) have made G's lack of experience as a BL a non-issue.

We have a list of songs we've been working on, and have had the limitation of being too jammy. We show up, warm up and then work on songs and the songs never seem to stick to an arrangement because G won't nail anything down. Last week D took the initiative and walked us through arrangements for two songs. I believe wholeheartedly that was a necessary step, and had refrained from doing so because I didn't want to have to deal with a potential headache (that's on me). We played them and liked how they sounded, I sent out an email with the arrangements written down so we could look it over and discuss/ lock it in, everything is good. The goal for practice this week is to record those arrangements so we can have something to work with.

Well.

Guys.

That didn't work out.

G went from being a talented performer and inexperienced BL to a complete diva. At the mere mention of recordings he started getting flustered and making excuses and just generally caving under pressure. This is after multiple mentions in email/ text/ phone calls that we want to get a low-key working recording for our own purposes. After a brief "disagreement" in which D and G talked right past each other about how to record ('I want to do A,' 'hey that's great, I love it, let's do B,' 'okay then, A it is,' 'Awesome, here goes B') our whole practice got shot to sh*t. I drove 3 hours through an ice storm for a two and a half hour practice in which we couldn't even nail down one good take, because G and D couldn't get theirs heads out of the G D buts long enough to get something to stick.

To make matters worse, as soon as things starting going in a direction G didn't like, he started to try and completely re-work the arrangement through incremental changes, and I have reason to believe he did it as a form of sabotage. Instead of taking the time to stop things, address what he wanted and make wholesale changes, he would stop the song, make one change, stop again, make another change and so on and so forth until nothing was the same as the original arrangement and I was obligated to write a new line on the fly. This was doubly frustrating because we have already spent weeks dialing this song in and after last practice the consensus was that is was done and ready to record. D and I both suggested, in light of how poorly things were going, that we should move on to another song and get our wind back. No dice. G kept bringing it back to the one song we couldn't agree on.

Things in the room got tense and unproductive, so I called practice (used some hand/wrist pain issues as an excuse). I don't like doing that, but my experience says that when you're over two hours of working time and still stuck in the same rut, it's time to call it a day. I called D after and talked it over and we're on the same page with regards to G - he's got the music side of things, but he needs to step up in his non-music skills if he wants this thing to work. All of the issues we had today came back to one of two things - inexperience in the band setting (working with others) and ego (not listening to others, not centering and getting down to work when things aren't perfect).

Here's the ask - how would you go about dealing with G? My plan as of right now is to call him up and talk with him about being in a band as opposed to being a solo act and to remind him that D and I are highly skilled volunteers who really don't need the hassle of a BL who doesn't know what he's doing. What I'm unsure of is whether it would better to try and coach him into being a better BL, or to convince him to step away from the admin side of that role and stick more to songwriting. Coaching him up is easier on his ego but requires more effort and patience on my part, convincing him to step back is a harder sell that (if successful) could lead to immediate resolution of the issue. I'm not about being in a 'drama' band (been there, done that), so I'm comfortable with resolving or quitting and stealing the drummer.

I’d find another G.... Life is way too short. Part of the tools a working musician needs is a giving heart. When music becomes “It’s all about Me” it will indeed become all about all about him as no one will be willing to work with him.

Being a Solo artist he has full control. In an ensemble, that is no longer the case. You give up your autonomy, and either you can deal with it or not. Frankly, you three need to be in a meeting and explain it to him this is not a solo act and you and the drummer are not side men, but equal partners in the enterprise. Then ask him point blank is willing to deal with that? If he say yes, then explain how his actions were counter productive, and that you will not put up with it. if he says no, on to the next guy.
 
Someone can be a great musician, but if they can't function as a bandmate, then it's not worth it to me.
This x 1000.

The problem with having been at this for so long is that I've seen this (and other) dilemma(s) before. Sure, sometimes it goes differently, but I wouldn't bet money on it.

So here's my take; you obviously know how to communicate with D. G does not. Guys like G are a dime-a-dozen. Go find a G that knows how to work with others. Someone who can't work in an ensemble should go be a solo act; that's where they're happiest. (And remember that for every difficult-to-work-with diva who makes it big, there are a million who don't and end up going nowhere despite their talent.)

The only regret I have in music is the time I spent working with people who didn't deserve it.
 
Send a email to every member asking what they think would help the process better, keep on the right side of friendship for now. It may turn out great in the end. Or it might be just a short practice session.