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Dealing with Dumb Bandmates

#101
Samples, & track backing. Clicks are probably necessary for that. Those genres I don't play & have little interest in playing---though they do require skill on the part of performers, not my cup of tea. When & if samples and tracks become a factor, that will change things.

What I'm doing is stuff like 70s folk & rock. Real basic meat & potato stuff. Samples and such, aren't a part of what we do, & no need to make it into something it's not. Apples & Oranges!
 
#104
Lobomov said:
FFS .. I've been basically shaking my head reading this thread, but not willing to enter the mess, but these days .. well, pro drummers that I know are called upon to play to a click due as they play with samples and backing track running. Claiming that they play without expression in those situations just because there is a click in their ears is BS.

Price of admission to semi-pro level ?? :D
Click to expand...

Hey I have a good idea! While you're confusing apples & oranges, why don't you catalogue several reasons why our guitarist/singer should convert to voice correction. I'm sure all those Dylan, Clapton, Elton John tunes can somehow benefit from the intrusion of modern technology simply for it's own sake.
 
#107
lovethegrowl said:
Hey I have a good idea! While you're confusing apples & oranges, why don't you catalogue several reasons why our guitarist/singer should convert to voice correction. I'm sure all those Dylan, Clapton, Elton John tunes can somehow benefit from the intrusion of modern technology simply for it's own sake.
Click to expand...

Voice correction?

The metronome just clicks allowing you to do whatever, the voice correction does not allow you to do whatever unless you use it actively and turn it on/off as needed. Just because you have a click in your ears does not prevent you from expressing yourself. You can play with deep pocket, without .. swing, straight, in the crack or whatever.

Has the metronome part of the discussion ended and it is all about voice correction now?

You have a drummer that plays with a metronome. I think that is praiseworthy .. why not take the positive view and work with his expression while playing with the metronome instead of making the metronome the enemy?
 
#108
I am saying that in the context of a trio playing oldies, that the use of a metronome as a crutch IS anachronistic as voice correction. A metronome is a wonderful thing, but absolutely not in the manner in which it has been recently introduced in this group.
 
#109
Lobomov said:
Voice correction?

The metronome just clicks allowing you to do whatever, the voice correction does not allow you to do whatever unless you use it actively and turn it on/off as needed. Just because you have a click in your ears does not prevent you from expressing yourself. You can play with deep pocket, without .. swing, straight, in the crack or whatever.

Has the metronome part of the discussion ended and it is all about voice correction now?

You have a drummer that plays with a metronome. I think that is praiseworthy .. why not take the positive view and work with his expression while playing with the metronome instead of making the metronome the enemy?
Click to expand...

When we introduce tracks & samples then the metronome will have a crucial role in keeping things on track. But not for songs like "Can't find my way home" by blind faith. I said it before, music can breath a little and it's no tragedy if you start at 118 bpm & end at 114 BPM.
 
#110
It occurs to me as I read this discussion that different styles/genres/generations of music carry with them some very unique recipes. One can't really alter ingredients arbitrarily without affecting the final product. Today the world is full of young musicians who need to posess a lot of tech stuff to recreate the music that means something to them. It may seem logical to them to consider more and better tech to be a blessing. But that's their recipe.

In the late '70's I was getting tired of the direction pop/rock music was going and started checking out Chicago Blues. Less slick, less technology for sure. More to my liking at the time. A different recipe. I like music that has more room for the humanity of the musicians and singers to shine through. I would rather have a drummer who felt free to trust himself and feel the songs. It doesn't mean I'm right. But it does fit the recipes I like to cook with. I have played with time-challenged drummers. I hate it. So I'm not saying you want to turn the reins over to an erratic drummer. Just the same, there is a loss of feel introduced into some forms of music by the rigid adherence to metronomic time. As George Martin once said of the Beatles, their time wasn't always perfect, but it was "wrong the right way." (Paraphrased, so Google won't be your friend here.)

Here's an example of a song that would probably not be improved if played to a click. BPM is radically different betweeen verse and chorus, yet the song is served IMHO. Idiosyncrasy isn't always a bad thing in my world. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy57Xdk9u0o
 
#111
This should have been part of the "why do all drummers suck?" thread previously seen on TB...LOL
Now, there might not be tons of available drummers in the desert, so once the coyotes will have dealt with your guy, your last resort might be a...drum machine...:(
Maybe just a tiny headbutt or a gentle kick the balls could resolve the matter here.
 
#112
chuckNC said:
It occurs to me as I read this discussion that different styles/genres/generations of music carry with them some very unique recipes. One can't really alter ingredients arbitrarily without affecting the final product. Today the world is full of young musicians who need to posess a lot of tech stuff to recreate the music that means something to them. It may seem logical to them to consider more and better tech to be a blessing. But that's their recipe.

In the late '70's I was getting tired of the direction pop/rock music was going and started checking out Chicago Blues. Less slick, less technology for sure. More to my liking at the time. A different recipe. I like music that has more room for the humanity of the musicians and singers to shine through. I would rather have a drummer who felt free to trust himself and feel the songs. It doesn't mean I'm right. But it does fit the recipes I like to cook with. I have played with time-challenged drummers. I hate it. So I'm not saying you want to turn the reins over to an erratic drummer. Just the same, there is a loss of feel introduced into some forms of music by the rigid adherence to metronomic time. As George Martin once said of the Beatles, their time wasn't always perfect, but it was "wrong the right way." (Paraphrased, so Google won't be your friend here.)

Here's an example of a song that would probably not be improved if played to a click. BPM is radically different betweeen verse and chorus, yet the song is served IMHO. Idiosyncrasy isn't always a bad thing in my world. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy57Xdk9u0o
Click to expand...

Thank you for articulating my point
 
#113
Frenchy-Lefty said:
This should have been part of the "why do all drummers suck?" thread previously seen on TB...LOL
Now, there might not be tons of available drummers in the desert, so once the coyotes will have dealt with your guy, your last resort might be a...drum machine...:(
Maybe just a tiny headbutt or a gentle kick the balls could resolve the matter here.
Click to expand...

Thanx. "Dumb" was hyperbolic & satirical. This drummer's versatile & has many assets. But we have to practice more efficiently or I'll have to quit.
 
#114
lovethegrowl, I get where you're coming from. Considering the type of music/gig you're playing, if the click causes the drummer to disengage, it's not worth it, IMO. Smallish pop/rock gigs generally have a closer connection between band and audience, so disengagement ain't so good.

The drummer's choice of a visual click rather than an in-ear click is interesting -- probably the better choice of the two, actually. To look at a click from time to time at certain moments of the song is no big deal as it's less distracting and easier to nudge the time without fighting against an out-of-sync click in your ear, but constantly staring at the thing in an attempt to play like a quantized machine just doesn't make sense to me for the type of music you guys are playing.

I know that some drummers prefer to play to an in-ear click. But over 30 years of playing (funk/R&B/jazz/pop), I can only recall one guy I played with who played to click in a way that didn't feel stiff or occasionally herky-jerky. I do recall a couple of guys who played to a visual click, and their grooves felt good... but they certainly weren't staring at the thing during entire songs.

At the end of the day, the music should sound/feel good. Whatever it takes to get there, I guess, though I have no doubt that some audience members will find it distracting to see a drummer just staring at his iPad for the whole set.
 
#115
lovethegrowl said:
When we introduce tracks & samples then the metronome will have a crucial role in keeping things on track. But not for songs like "Can't find my way home" by blind faith. I said it before, music can breath a little and it's no tragedy if you start at 118 bpm & end at 114 BPM.
Click to expand...


My point was just that in it self, a metronome is not evil :)


But the thing is, when you see someone using crutches, you cant just demand they lose then, because everyone else is doing just fine without.

There is a reason for it. You need to know why and take it from there.


Is he afraid of tempo swinging to much. Has he been prone to start songs in wrong tempos or whatever.

If so you need to find a way to take away the fear. Work with it, practice it. Let someone else count of the song or whatever.


You cant just demand crutches to come of for no reason other than to please you. If the meteonome indeed is a crutch, you need to build up his self esteem, so he can play without (or off course just replace him or you :) )
 
#116
If I felt the drummer's "feel" suffered from the metronome, but he was adamant about the tempos, I would suggest to him that he counts the songs off to his metronome, but let it flow after that. And butter him up a little.. tell him that he's really good at keeping the tempo once it's established, so you don't think it's necessary after the song starts.

If your drummer can hold a good pocket, and you're not playing in a rock band to a programmed light show, backing tracks, etc.. then I could see it hindering the feel of the music, especially in a jazz or oldies kind of band.
 
#117
It's funny how the concept of pulse is tripping up so many musicians these days. It's like the idea was only invented in the past few years. David Gilmour's opening solo on "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" was played to a click track. The click isn't meant to be taken literally. The way that it's integrated so dryly and literally into modern music is almost funny to me. I'd laugh, but the music is so bad...
 

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