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Double Bass Dealing with Getting Cut Up

Kevin Hsieh

Kevin Hsieh

Jun 2, 2007
1,043
2
37
New York City
www.myspace.com
#1
There are two Magnet Arts schools in my area, LACHSA and OCSHA, which stand for Los Angeles and Orange County respectively. I didn't attend either, but instead ended up going to one of the most academically challenging public schools in California, which happened to have a decent but unrecognized jazz program. LACHSA swept the NextGeneration Jazz Festival at Monterey and basically win everything they show up at.

The working unit, a quartet, that I've been gigging with recently has been branching out and playing in other programs hosted by the Musicians Union and another Arts College called Colburn. My drummer always comes back with stories about the incredible bassists he plays with (who happen to attend these arts schools), which I bet you would imagine ruffles my feathers a bit.

Anyways, these are guys that have been playing for much longer than me, maybe starting in middle school and ending up attending an art school to pursue that facet of their life. I happened to pick up an upright bass by chance in my senior year and fell in love with it enough to join both bands at my school, join a combo, and practice 'til i could gig. I'm so enthralled by jazz and upright bass that I'm going to major in it when I go off to college in NewYork.

I hate to say it, but it does bother me when I hear about kids my age that are better me. It does work as motivation to spend that much more time, keep my ego in check, and not get lazy, but it is also disappointing and deflating. I don't mind watching the heavies play, because those guys got to where they are for being great players. If you got to this point of my rambling, I'd like to ask you (since the majority of you are older than me and all of you are infinitely wiser than me), how you deal with getting over it when people cut you up on the bass? How do you keep yourself from giving up, thinking that there is no way you'd be able to survive if all these guys, who've had years of extra experience on you, are going to end up playing and competing for the same spot? I know there will always be some cat that's better than me and i shouldn't be striving to reach the skill levels of the kids my age but the great players like Ray Brown and Scott Lafaro. I know there are answers like just ignore it and keep shedding because the gig god will provide, but if anyone has some personal advice to tell that'd be great. Seeing as I will be going to New York and playing next year, I'll need to figure out some way to deal.

Thanks for putting up with me, TB
 
#2
Kevin Hsieh said:
how you deal with getting over it when people cut you up on the bass?
Click to expand...

I look at it this way. Music is a totally personal experience. If you invest yourself in playing the bass and enjoy doing it then there is no reason to think about the 'competition'.

If it is about money... choose another profession. Don't do music for the money. 1 It'll suck all the fun out of it (that's needs to be there in oder to make good music 2 You'll make more money pumping gas.

Play bass 'cause it is personally fulfilling. Invest yourself in being the best you can be at what you do. If you do that you'll work.
 
#3
Kevin there is always going to be someone better at somethings on bass than you no matter who you are, it is how you use the reality check when you get it in my opinion. if you love music I think you should strive to be the best musician you can be. no one starts out at the top and once you get to the top a whole lot of new younger players are doing some great things possibly better than you, it is a cycle. I'm not sure how you can get over the fact but if you love music and playing the bass I'm sure you will and care out a niche for your own playing

good luck
 
#4
Kevin, in my experience doubt will exist as will envy and it has more to do with the kind of person you are and how you see the world more than anything else. I certainly have my insecurities and although I have periods where I feel good about myself, I have periods of severe doubt, as well as being envious of others. When this happens I feel like everything I play or write is empty, then when I feel good I can reach with ease across my instrument and can see compositions like familiar stories. I mention this because sometimes we are learning even when we don’t know it. Perhaps you are becoming a stronger player and perhaps the doubts you are having will make you a stronger player? I know this may not serve as much of a consolation when you are hearing your drummer friend tell you of all the great players they have “been with” but it does challenge you to think about what you want out of music and to then set goals.

As an older player, I would say, try not to let envy through you off your goals. If I have a regret in this regard it is that I avoided things I was insecure about. Ironically, as the years have passed, I don’t remember the names of those who I was jealous of but I do know I could have been a better player if I had stayed focused and faced my insecurities, which is what I am trying to do know. Maybe I am not that old a player after all...

All the best with what you would like to do on the instrument.
 
#6
Like they said up above.

The only other point I'd make is this: I've personally seen people who were "OK" work their ass off and improve to become remarkable musicians.

A "gift" is something which takes you from Point A to Point B in some endeavor much quicker than it would take most people to get there. Once the "gifted" individual arrives at Point B the work is just as hard. Itzhak Perlman's Point B is a place I may never reach in this life, but rest assured that he's in the shed every day.

Back to work, my man. Play for love and go for the growth.
 
#7
Something to keep in mind is you are only 18. You have so much time to get to the level you want to be at. If you go to college and do music like you say you are, you will be a badass in 4 years.

Me, I putzed around on electric playing prog rock until I was 30, and only picked up upright when I was 32. I have some catching up to do. There are some guys on here who are starting upright in their 40s or 50s.

In a couple of weeks, my jazz quartet is doing a show with this group made up of recent graduates from the music college here in Minneapolis. I know I'm going to get my a$$ kicked by someone more than 10 years younger than me. I can either get depressed or I can get motivated to put in another hour of practice a night.
 
#8
Kevin Hsieh said:
My drummer always comes back with stories about the incredible bassists he plays with (who happen to attend these arts schools), which I bet you would imagine ruffles my feathers a bit.
Click to expand...

Man, some drummers love to do this. It's usually the ones who ain't so great themselves.
Don't worry about who's better than you right now; anyway, there's always gonna be someone your age (at whatever age you'll be at any point in your life) who will be "better" than you.
 
#9
All you can sound like is what you sound like. The only thing that changes what you sound like is the amount of consistent, focused and progressive work you spend in the shed. If what you are trying to do is get to what your true, personal, honest voice is, how can you be threatened or disheartened by anyone else who is working to get there?

If you are trying to sound like YOU and not some amalgam of all the other players out there, NOBODY ELSE CAN SOUND LIKE YOU. You are the only YOU that there is. You just can't skate on the work to get to your voice, just like nobody can sound like you, nobody can do the work but you. You have to stop measuring yourself by using other people and start using YOURSELF.
 
#10
Here's another thing: if you hated, really hated, the smell of garlic and onions, would you wanna be a chef?

Well, as musicians, we put ourselves on stage, on display. We're there for everyone to see and hear. Your nose dripping? Fly undone? Playing out of tune? Solo suck? Some of that will happen, some of that will be seen, ain't nothing you can do to completely prevent it. In jazz performance, there's also this aspect of "he bad"-ness -- we admire proficiency and skill and virtuousity. We even have traditions of "cutting" -- trying to out-do a guy on the stand or to make him look bad (in the bad sense of "bad".) If there are aspects of this being-on-display thing that make you uncomfortable or feel bad, I think you gotta think about that a bit and deal with it. Maybe it's like Alexander Technique for your feelings or something... Recognize what's going on and take steps to do it different.

I like Ed's way of looking at it, but all the other guys are right, too. Do the work, be yourself, don't try to be someone else. But also: try to get a thicker skin, a sense of humour about it. If you're going to be on the stage, get comfy with the heat of the lights. They aren't going to be turned off anytime soon. Nerves and anxieties never go away completely, but your attitude and ability to deal with them can certainly change.

Try and remember, too, that even though a lot of us are spending our lives doing this, in the end it's just music. We aren't taking the same kind of risks brain surgeons or even truck drivers are taking...
 
#11
Kevin Hsieh said:
There are two Magnet Arts schools in my area, LACHSA and OCSHA, which stand for Los Angeles and Orange County respectively. I didn't attend either, but instead ended up going to one of the most academically challenging public schools in California, which happened to have a decent but unrecognized jazz program. LACHSA swept the NextGeneration Jazz Festival at Monterey and basically win everything they show up at.

The working unit, a quartet, that I've been gigging with recently has been branching out and playing in other programs hosted by the Musicians Union and another Arts College called Colburn. My drummer always comes back with stories about the incredible bassists he plays with (who happen to attend these arts schools), which I bet you would imagine ruffles my feathers a bit.

Anyways, these are guys that have been playing for much longer than me, maybe starting in middle school and ending up attending an art school to pursue that facet of their life. I happened to pick up an upright bass by chance in my senior year and fell in love with it enough to join both bands at my school, join a combo, and practice 'til i could gig. I'm so enthralled by jazz and upright bass that I'm going to major in it when I go off to college in NewYork.

I hate to say it, but it does bother me when I hear about kids my age that are better me. It does work as motivation to spend that much more time, keep my ego in check, and not get lazy, but it is also disappointing and deflating. I don't mind watching the heavies play, because those guys got to where they are for being great players. If you got to this point of my rambling, I'd like to ask you (since the majority of you are older than me and all of you are infinitely wiser than me), how you deal with getting over it when people cut you up on the bass? How do you keep yourself from giving up, thinking that there is no way you'd be able to survive if all these guys, who've had years of extra experience on you, are going to end up playing and competing for the same spot? I know there will always be some cat that's better than me and i shouldn't be striving to reach the skill levels of the kids my age but the great players like Ray Brown and Scott Lafaro. I know there are answers like just ignore it and keep shedding because the gig god will provide, but if anyone has some personal advice to tell that'd be great. Seeing as I will be going to New York and playing next year, I'll need to figure out some way to deal.

Thanks for putting up with me, TB
Click to expand...

My cousin went to the LA Zoo Magnet, if you know it.

I deal with getting cut up by taking lessons from the people that are bad as hell, I try to absord all the music I can, from everyone around me.
 
#12
Damon Rondeau said:
If there are aspects of this being-on-display thing that make you uncomfortable or feel bad, I think you gotta think about that a bit and deal with it. Maybe it's like Alexander Technique for your feelings or something... ..
Click to expand...

Actually this reminded me of Kenny Werner's "Effortless Mastery" which is basically about improving your self - confidence - I've heard Jazz Musicians say it helped them! :)

Couldn't hurt...?
 
#13
I can't comment about Werner's book because I haven't read it -- I know my teacher was a fan and lots of people are. There's bound to be some good stuff in there.

All I know is that it took me until my 40's to realize that I was harming my health because of some attitudes I was carrying around with me -- just like you'd be harming your body if you played the DB wrong for decades on end. A lot of those attitudes had to do with ego, with anxiety, about self-perception and self-confidence. A lot of them were youthful things that were never resolved until well into adulthood. And basically, I actually did get sick for a while because the Black Dog gnawed at me pretty good for a few years. I was lucky enough to recognize it, get a little bit of help and support, and to make some changes. Things are so much better now.

Anyway, I think artists in general have a special situation when it comes to anxiety and self-confidence. If you're doing it right, you're putting yourself out there more or less naked. And there are going to be people who will laugh, people who won't dig it, colleagues who are going to be tough on you. None of this ever pleasant, but if it's so much a drag that you aren't sleeping right, aren't taking on challenges you should be taking, aren't treating yourself decently enough to do what you know you should be doing, then things aren't going very well and you should think about making some changes.

Artist: know thyself, cast fear aside and get on with it.
 
#14
Morning, guys

I want to thank you for all your responses. I slept it off and I feel better. It's hard to deal with that stuff alone at 12 o clock at night. It's 72 degrees Fahrenheit and looking like a great day to spend a couple hours in the shed. All your insights are brilliant and I'm sure I'll be looking back on this in the future.

Jordan, you hit my feelings on the spot. I do feel a bit envious when someone can play a Bird lick 5 times faster than me on the upright, but I've just got to get over it and learn that Bird lick i guess.

As for the stage fright business, I don't have problems performing, but only watching. But i'm for sure to check out Essential Mastery after I invest in my Jazz Theory Book (next to buy on my list).

I think self-confidence as a musician is like a wave pattern. There are times I feel absolutely great about myself. I know what I'm playing (even if i'm sightreading) I think I sound good and I'm soloing with great ideas. Then there are the times that i'm just not too sure about myself, my mind's haunted with thoughts about other players and i'm self-conscious about what I play during rehearsal. The second mood really detracts on my own growth (my risk-taking, my imagination, and my overall sound). But it only usually a week-long (maximum) interval.

Going to shed now.

cheers
 
#16
Kevin Hsieh said:
I think self-confidence as a musician is like a wave pattern. There are times I feel absolutely great about myself. I know what I'm playing (even if i'm sightreading) I think I sound good and I'm soloing with great ideas. Then there are the times that i'm just not too sure about myself, my mind's haunted with thoughts about other players and i'm self-conscious about what I play during rehearsal. The second mood really detracts on my own growth (my risk-taking, my imagination, and my overall sound). But it only usually a week-long (maximum) interval.
Click to expand...

Congratulations Mrs. Hsieh, we pronounce your son to be completely normal! Awareness of this stuff is good -- burying it and covering it over with other stuff is bad.

I was thinking, too, that we were treating you a bit unfairly by implying things like stage fright and anxiety and the like. It's just that jealousy is kissing cousins with fear and love and all of that stuff. We all got it, we all gotta deal with it one way or another.
 
#18
Kevin Hsieh said:
I hate to say it, but it does bother me when I hear about kids my age that are better me.
Click to expand...

This is where your mistake is happening, most likely; once you reach a certain (yet undefined) level of playing, it's almost all a matter of taste, and the concept of 'better than' loses most of its meaning. Sounds more like your drummer has an insecurity issue, and he'd like to pull you down to his level.

Paul Gilbert is technically a much better guitarist than David Gilmour; who's more likely to make 35,000 in an arena people weep with a single note? Once you reach the heights, and you're serious, it's all about taste; forget those guys, and project your own pathos - it's all about communicating emotion. Comparing technique and execution among players is like going to a tasting and comparing cookware. It's in the meat baby!
 
#19
I think it's one should remember that even the best players have those moments of being down on themselves. What you hear a player do in the audience and what he/she hears on the bandstand are two completely different things. I've heard Patitucci talk about having off days or not liking something in his playing. I think we can all agree that Patitucci's off days are the goal for most of us. No matter what level you reach, you'll always strive to be better. We set the highest standards for ourselves.
 

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