Dealing with sound person conflicts

[Wasnex]

Sorry... I should have qualified it by saying solo acts.. I totally agree with your statements. If I've got 3 vocalists, I would prefer the same mics on all.

No worries. I would certainly entertain a soloist's desire to use their own mic, but sometimes it doesn't go well and it's not always a simple matter to quash feedback. So while I think their is evidence the OP was dealing with a hack audio tech, it's also possible that the system was well prepped and swapping in a different mic created an unfortunate situation that was difficult to overcome.

My guess is the vocal channel had too much compression dialed in. This makes it hard for the vocalist to hear their voice and also makes the mic very sensitive to feedback. Unfortunately the last time I mixed as a guess engineer, I got burned by this when we had to transition one of our vocalist into monitor wedges in the middle of a gig because her IEMs were taking huge RF hits.

The monitor mix sounded great when I soloed it in my headphones, but she kept complaining that she could not hear herself, and I could not turn her up any more. I thought perhaps she had just become spoiled from using IEMS, but I spent a good bit of time trying to dial out the feedback so I could give her more. Eventually I figured out that she had two compressors engaged on her channel and both were being too hit hard because I had adjusted the gain on all of the vocal channels. As soon as I adjusted the compressors and renormalized the gain on her channel, all of the feedback and balance problems went away.

 

[Bartpop]

1) What kind of vocal mic did you have?

2) What kind of guitar rig did you have?

3) What kind of board (if you know)?

4) What kind of monitors?

I'm pretty sure the guy's an idiot. But more details will confirm.

1. I was using an Ear Trumpet Labs Edwina mic, which although is a condenser mic, is described as being designed for live use - cardioid pattern. Also worth mentioning that the venue was outdoors so there wasn't really an issue with sound bouncing around.

2. Fender Blues Deluxe amp

3. I'm pretty sure that they were using a Behringer X32. Also pretty sure that had very little clue how to use it as they told me that it was new. On those mixers I'm almost sure that you can eq the monitor mix independently to deal with feedback... if you know how to run the board in the first place.

4. Not sure on the monitors. Wedges... maybe older JBLs. Most of their gear (excepting the mixer) seemed well worn and old - cables, mics, stands, speakers, etc.

 

[s0c9]

I thought perhaps she had just become spoiled from using IEMS, but I spent a good bit of time trying to dial out the feedback so I could give her more. Eventually I figured out that she had two compressors engaged on her channel and both were being too hit hard because I had adjusted the gain on all of the vocal channels. As soon as I adjusted the compressors and renormalized the gain on her channel, all of the feedback and balance problems went away.

Seen the same thing at a mega-church I used to work at. First time in, I couldn't figure out why I had so much squealing in the wedges - as I had worked with same mics/console elsewhere. Turns out to have been the same issue as yours. Over compressed vocal channels. I try NOT to use compression on vocals unless I've got an errant vocalist, as they tend to blow out their voices trying to force dynamics thru the wedges. Similar to putting pitch-correction back thru the wedges.. messes 'em up real quick!

 

[two fingers]

1. I was using an Ear Trumpet Labs Edwina mic, which although is a condenser mic, is described as being designed for live use - cardioid pattern. Also worth mentioning that the venue was outdoors so there wasn't really an issue with sound bouncing around.

2. Fender Blues Deluxe amp

3. I'm pretty sure that they were using a Behringer X32. Also pretty sure that had very little clue how to use it as they told me that it was new. On those mixers I'm almost sure that you can eq the monitor mix independently to deal with feedback... if you know how to run the board in the first place.

4. Not sure on the monitors. Wedges... maybe older JBLs. Most of their gear (excepting the mixer) seemed well worn and old - cables, mics, stands, speakers, etc.

Although a condenser vocal mic CAN be a beast to EQ properly (depending on conditions), I'm still going with they're idiots. The X32 has literally become an industry standard board. And nothing else seemed crazy.

 

[Muttleybass]

Soundman's motto:
"I'm not happy until you're not happy"

 

[Bartpop]

Although a condenser vocal mic CAN be a beast to EQ properly (depending on conditions), I'm still going with they're idiots. The X32 has literally become an industry standard board. And nothing else seemed crazy.

I have to agree, partially because I played a similar stage the following week and had no sound issues from the sound engineer whatsoever.

The hard part is figuring out what to do/say when a third party wrecks your gig, whether accidentally or through incompetence. I kind of think I should not have said anything and I may have been invited back... but at the same time, if I was invited back I might not want to go!

 

[sawzalot]

I'm a sound engineer in addition to a bassist.

This is the giveaway:

the person running the board commented several times that they had recently upgraded their mixer and they didn't really know how to use it.

They had no idea what they were doing if they had never seen an X32.

I bet the engineer blamed the mic because it looks funny. The Ear Trumpet mic looks like a studio mic, not at all what a typical live mic looks like. I've not used that particular mic before but the frequency response plot looks cardiod enough that I'd be able to get it to work. It's rear rejection isn't as good as an SM-58, but if you're close enough and/or loud enough it would work fine. It probably sounds much better than an SM-58.

I've asked guitarists to turn up if their amp is super quiet and I can't get enough gain out of the mic pre's, or down if the amp is too loud relative to the PA. That's not the case here--they didn't know how to adjust the channel gain on the X32. Likewise they didn't know how to eq the monitor to keep it from feeding back.

Unfortunately, the critical error was pointing out the sound guy didn't know what he was doing. Always better to say only positive things because that's what people will remember about you. Having a lot of feedback issues? Say something like, "hey, the crew did a great job getting us through the technical issues"--even if they caused the technical issues. I wouldn't worry about it too much though, just keep asking for gigs and sooner or later you'll get one.

 

[Bartpop]

Soundman's motto:
"I'm not happy until you're not happy"

Mis-read this on the first pass.

On the second pass... LOL!

 

[Glenn_G]

I use to do sound for a band after I decided I didn't want to be in a band but still wanted to be around the business. Feed back can happen easily when you change out equipment but it's easily eliminated. The best way is with a parametric eq. If you don't have one, a regular eq will do it but you will have to drop out more frequencies than the one causing the feedback. As a last resort you can do it with tone controls but that is probably a worse solution than the problem. As far as adjusting your volume to suit the board, it's a bit odd but if it works, whatever. No excuse for not having monitors.
It just sounds like you had a bad date with the sound guy.

 

[Bartpop]

I'm a sound engineer in addition to a bassist.

This is the giveaway:


They had no idea what they were doing if they had never seen an X32.

I bet the engineer blamed the mic because it looks funny. The Ear Trumpet mic looks like a studio mic, not at all what a typical live mic looks like. I've not used that particular mic before but the frequency response plot looks cardiod enough that I'd be able to get it to work. It's rear rejection isn't as good as an SM-58, but if you're close enough and/or loud enough it would work fine. It probably sounds much better than an SM-58.

I've asked guitarists to turn up if their amp is super quiet and I can't get enough gain out of the mic pre's, or down if the amp is too loud relative to the PA. That's not the case here--they didn't know how to adjust the channel gain on the X32. Likewise they didn't know how to eq the monitor to keep it from feeding back.

Unfortunately, the critical error was pointing out the sound guy didn't know what he was doing. Always better to say only positive things because that's what people will remember about you. Having a lot of feedback issues? Say something like, "hey, the crew did a great job getting us through the technical issues"--even if they caused the technical issues. I wouldn't worry about it too much though, just keep asking for gigs and sooner or later you'll get one.

As was sitting here thinking more about this, I guess I should add that there's a little more to the story. Although the feedback/monitor issues weren't worked out before showtime, once the show started the sound person just kind of blew it off and sat behind the board having drinks and talking to the person next to them. It wasn't like they tried to work out any issues during my set, probably because I was only the opening act. I kept asking for more monitor but nothing doing. After 45 minutes playing and not being able to hear myself, I was pretty pissed.

I'm starting to understand from consensus that airing even a politely worded grievance with the venue might blow-up in your face. But c'mon!!!

 

[JRA]

i've rarely dealt with idiots as FOH, but on the rare occasion: tell them what you need (what you want them to do) and let them know when you have what you want. easy peasy.

 

[trevcda]

I'm starting to understand from consensus that airing even a politely worded grievance with the venue might blow-up in your face. But c'mon!!!

You basically you bit the hand that feeds you, as the proverb goes. Sure it's frustrating and maybe you did yourself a favor, now that you won't have to play there again. Another one? No good deed goes unpunished. It probably would have been best to walk away and cool off, chalk it up to a learning experience and be wary next time. Also maybe work on performing without monitors. I can almost guarantee that isn't the last time you'll work with incompetent sound people, bad equipment or some horrid combination of both. Besides, in the old days they didn't even have monitors!

 

[buldog5151bass]

I would have said there were problems with the stage sound, and left it at that. I don't doubt you, but the promoter probably just heard it as excuses, trying to blame the sound guy for your problems (in his eyes).

 

[bearhart74]

Seems that hiring sound that thinks its ok to bring new gear that is crucial to a good presentation they don't know how to use is a bad choice by the venue.

 

[s0c9]

Seems that hiring sound that thinks its ok to bring new gear that is crucial to a good presentation they don't know how to use is a bad choice by the venue.

But you have little choice. Most of these types of acts are word of mouth, contracts don't exist. Plus, there are 5 other acts lined up outside, hoping you'll crash n burn so they can get your slot. Venue mgt is more concerned about the food/drinks sales and how many people you will bring with you. Sound quality and musician satisfaction is near the bottom of the list..

OK. I know, over-generalization perhaps, but those of you who've being doing this a while know EXACTLY what I mean.

 

[bearhart74]

But you have little choice. Most of these types of acts are word of mouth, contracts don't exist. Plus, there are 5 other acts lined up outside, hoping you'll crash n burn so they can get your slot. Venue mgt is more concerned about the food/drinks sales and how many people you will bring with you. Sound quality and musician satisfaction is near the bottom of the list..

OK. I know, over-generalization perhaps, but those of you who've being doing this a while know EXACTLY what I mean.

No argument here but if this is a fact then the venue should not have penalized the performer for a sound co issue. Yea i know expecting ethical behavior where $$ are involved is a stretch but not everyone is a leech.

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

I'm sorry to hear you had a bad experience! I'm a sound person my self, and do my best to be nice to the musicians as best as I can as I know there's a ton of sound persons that suck.

First point: it's not logical to adjust your amp's volume to match their preferred level. However, if the venue is smallish, and you crank up your amp too much, you'll run into problems. Was your amp too loud? If it was, then he can't possibly put you into the PA. On top of that, your vocal mic might be getting your amp and when he puts your voice in the monitors, he's actually making the guitar louder. I do have an up limit on amp volumes especially in small/medium venues.

Second point: what is your mic? Some microphones do feedback at some places. If someone shows up with an sm58 or something similar, I got no problems. I bring my own mic to the gigs as amusician as well. As an alternative, I suggest bringing foam filters so you can put them on the house mics and stop germs.

Hope you won't have a similar experience again.

 

[s0c9]

No argument here but if this is a fact then the venue should not have penalized the performer for a sound co issue. Yea i know expecting ethical behavior where $$ are involved is a stretch but not everyone is a leech.

That was not my inference.. My point was that the House runs FOH. One cannot usually complain as it will do no good, and there are others waiting to take your slot if you do. It's part of the game.

 

[Bartpop]

But you have little choice. Most of these types of acts are word of mouth, contracts don't exist. Plus, there are 5 other acts lined up outside, hoping you'll crash n burn so they can get your slot. Venue mgt is more concerned about the food/drinks sales and how many people you will bring with you. Sound quality and musician satisfaction is near the bottom of the list..

OK. I know, over-generalization perhaps, but those of you who've being doing this a while know EXACTLY what I mean.

That's very accurate in this case. I hadn't really given my experience with this venue a lot of thought until recently... (it's been one year), but posting about it made me realize that they paid musicians poorly compared to other venues, had a lousy sound person, and I was trapped there for the whole night because there was no way to move gear out until the headlining act was over. The only plus: a fairly large crowd of people. For the venue it was clearly about dollars.

 

[edro]

One performer, two mics, outside so no hard walls, and feed back (I take it as vocal mic feedback and in the performers vocal floor )...

Redneck quick troubleshooting step....
Re-aim the floor away will tell one a lot.... Think of a plunger on the grill face of a floor.... move so handle points somewhere else... Tells ya stuff...