Dealing with sound person conflicts

[BAG]

This Sunday my new band has our first gig. Other than festival gigs it will be the first one in a few years where i have a dedicated FOH sound person. I will try to ensure that there are no arguments as it's my daughter doing sound. She recently started working for one of the bigger sound companies around here and thought it would be a good chance to get some experience on one of the Midas desks. Her boss is coming to help out too so I'll only have to worry about mixing foldback. Fingers crossed it all goes well.

 

[byacey]

1) What kind of vocal mic did you have?

2) What kind of guitar rig did you have?

3) What kind of board (if you know)?

4) What kind of monitors?

I'm pretty sure the guy's an idiot. But more details will confirm.

The gear is irrelevant. It comes down to the sound tech knowing what to do with what he has. If he doesn't know how to drive the rig, he shouldn't be there.

Setting up monitors and FOH for a solo act shouldn't take longer than 1 to 2 minutes. If they can't be dialed in within that period of time, the so-called sound tech should be sent packing, as he obviously has no clue.

 

[Wood and Wire]

Probably best not to even acknowledge such problems, once the show has started :

"What, there were feedback problems? I couldn't hear anything up on stage."


At the end of the day, if you're putting bums on seats, you'll be invited back - no matter how much of a diva you are.


At that point, it's your choice whether you'll agree to play at a venue that tolerates incompetent staff.

 

[Zbysek]

Secondly, they were unable to provide a usable monitor mix due to feedback issues, which they blamed on the microphone that I had brought, even though the person running the board commented several times that they had recently upgraded their mixer and they didn't really know how to use it. Since I only had 20-30 minutes to run the soundcheck and they never got the issues worked out I was forced to play my entire set with virtually no monitors, which as everyone knows, sucks. After limping through a 45 minute set screaming at the top of my lungs to try to hear myself I was kind of embarrassed and pissed. (Large PA stacks way out to the sides and in front)

You might wanna consider getting yourself self-monitoring device which would help you in situations like this. I have TC Helicon Voicesolo FX150 and Behringer MA400...there are plenty others available.

|VOICESOLO FX150|Tchelicon|P0CMI

Link Removed

 

[Nevada Pete]

Yeah, I guess the 20-30 minutes was really for a complete load-in, set-up, soundcheck, which still is really generous. I was super surprised that my sound experience was so bad considering that I typically don’t get more than a minute or two to soundcheck most places I play.

They were definitely setting levels using the amp volume. They had me adjust both up and down. I’ve always heard that it’s best to stay respectful to your sound engineer so I didn’t say anything at the time but I was seriously thinking ***!

I chalked it up to a learning experience that sometimes the gig is going to suck and if you say anything there’s a risk that you’ll burn a bridge... right or wrong.

I played a gig the following week as the main act and the engineer was fantastic. No issues, larger PA, same mic, etc.

Hi. It's your favorite former big time sound guy and former semi-illustrious musician / bassist - obsessive / compulsive writer here. Along with my storied opinion. Take whatever happens to be worth something to you, if anything. I am going to be devil's advocate so you can see how your experience looks from the other side of the ol' fence.

Amp on stage:

The only thing I can think of here is that possibly the sound people were trying to jockey back and forth between your amp levels on stage and the PA levels. This may have made it seem as if they were trying to get a mix via your stage amp levels. But I will tell you, I don't think that's a very plausible explanation for what happened. You have to admit attempting to work up a mix FOH by fussing with your stage amp volume is pretty dang out there on planet Mars. Even for your typical club sound people. Instead, I strongly suspect they were just trying to get your stage levels right. Which begs the question, why did sound people even have to do that? What stage levels? You were performing solo acoustic! Yes?

I don't know anything about your act, and you didn't include very much information. But from your avatar it looks like you are playing an acoustic guitar to back yourself up. That would be typical for a solo performance. So, why are you even using an amp on stage for a solo performance, when the venue has sound? At a gig like that, your way better off using a DI and sending a feed from your acoustic guitar's (piezo) pickups directly to the soundboard. Your guitar will sound fine. Don't make things more complicated than they need to be! And for gosh sake, if you are playing solo electric, dump the electric guitar. It's more trouble than its worth.

Monitors / Sound Check

Remember, your not playing Carnegie Hall. Not yet, anyway. When you are drawing crowds like Gordon Lightfoot with your acoustic act (I'm presuming you are an acoustic solo act), you can insist upon anything you want in your performance rider and drive the sound guys at your shows out of their minds, if you want to. In the mean time, I suggest for you to be easy to work with! (PS: Gordon Lightfoot is easy to work with). Example: Your performance was seriously marred by feedback issues from the floor monitors. Why on earth do you need floor monitors when performing solo? Answer: You don't. So why not just tell the sound guys: "Monitors? I don't need no stinking monitors! I'm easy to work with." That alone would have solved your monitor feedback problems and resulted in an issue free performance.

You took 20 to 30 minutes for a sound check? For a solo acoustic act? Good grief. Sounds like the venue was being very accommodating. That, or I'm missing something.

Using your own microphone:

Without knowing just exactly what microphone you brought with you and insisted on using, and what monitors were being employed, it's not possible to know if your microphone was indeed the reason you had feedback issues during your performance. That is, since you were using floor monitors you didn't really need to begin with. We can surmise, though, that the feedback issues you encountered that disrupted your performance, along with blaming the sound guys for the feedback may indeed have been the reason why you haven't been asked back to perform at that venue. Question: Did any other artists on the playbill have feedback problems? So what's the talent buyer for that venue supposed to think?

A Shure SM58 is the industry standard for a front line vocal microphone. With good reason. This is not good enough for you? Well, it's what your almost always going to encounter, with very, very few exceptions. I've used them with Steve Perry, Tina Turner, Lydia Pense, and countless others. Why would you want to use anything else? Trust me, if you can't give a memorable vocal performance using a Shure SM58, the microphone is not your problem! Bring an SM58 with you and there should be no problem using your own microphone in place of a grungy old club 58 if you don't wish to share mouth bacteria from the other performers on the playbill. Bring anything else other than an SM58 and your destined to get in hot water with sound people unless you are slated as the top bill performer and you have added a stipulation in your performance rider. Why should sound people have to bother with your crummy microphone? Just saying.

So let's add it all up (based on the information I have available):

You brought an amp on stage for a solo acoustic act, and you and the sound people had to fuss with it just to get a balance between your amp (that you didn't need) and the house system.

You wanted floor monitors for a solo acoustic act (??), but you brought a microphone the sound guys were not familiar with and insisted upon using it.

You sucked up 20 to 30 minutes of the sound people's time for a solo acoustic act sound check that by all rights ought to have required 3 to 5 minutes at the outside (unless I'm missing something).

Your performance was seriously marred by feedback issues. Who else on the playbill had feedback issues?

You apologized to the talent buyer by blaming the sound crew for the train wreck that was your performance.

You are incredulous that you haven't been asked back to perform at that venue again.

<I'm guessing it's probably because I made a point to say something to the booking guy.>

Well, you come off as a prima donna, i.e., a very temperamental person with an inflated view of their own talent or importance. So yeah, it's probably because you made a point to say something to the booking guy that made you come off like that, and that's why they don't want you back. Not yet, anyway. Everything's negotiable.

<I still play plenty of other places and have never run into these kinds of issues... am I better off?>

No, you are not better off. But good for you! You have it going well enough to be able to perform regularly, and this isn't something that's easy to accomplish! So you can build on that. But, let's get real. You still play plenty of what other places where you've never run into these kinds of issues? The club where you crashed and burned is, "popular, and has a good crowd". There's a reason for that. I strongly suspect this venue is a step up from the joints you've been used to playing at, and it showed. Won't be the first time that's ever happened. How else you gonna learn?

<Is it better not to say anything at all?>

It's better to know what your talking about before you say anything. In this case, you could have asked the booking guy what he thinks you need to do to surmount the problems that so obviously marred your performance, and offered to do a stellar performance for free next time to make up for it.

<How do you handle sound person problems?>

First you become aware of what the sound people's problems are, and what are in fact your problems.

Based on the information I have available, you could start by 1) Not bringing an amp to a solo acoustic performance (or swapping out an electric guitar for an acoustic guitar with piezo pickups when you perform solo), 2) Use a direct box for the guitar, 3) Learn to perform solo acoustic without monitors. You don't need them! Sound guys will love you for that and ask the venue to book you more often! Best of all, your performance will not be marred by feedback or bleed through from monitors you don't need anyway, 4) If you insist on using your own microphone, make sure it's the same microphone you would have used at the venue your playing at. In almost all cases, that's going to be a Shure SM58. So acquire one of those if you want your own microphone. Have an engraver engrave your name on it. Plan on your microphone going missing. They have a way of doing that. 5) If you absolutely, positively think you just have to have monitoring, there are these strange gizmo's called IEM's some people like. You would have to put together a self-contained system for use where ever you play. 6) Don't take up so much time with a sound check. It shouldn't take more than a minute or so for a solo acoustic act. Get up there, blow your pipes, strum your guitar, and get off the stage! Sound guys will love you for that and ask the venue to book you more often! 6) Be easy to work with as a first priority.

Nothing says you still can't approach the booking guy at that venue, tell him you have spoken to professionals about what happened and that you are so sure you can deliver a stellar performance to make up for the train wreck that you are willing to do it for free to prove it to him. Tell him what you intend to do differently, and ask him for another chance. If that doesn't work, wait until you have hosted your own television program for a year or so and then return to the venue. That usually works.

 

[two fingers]

The gear is irrelevant. It comes down to the sound tech knowing what to do with what he has. If he doesn't know how to drive the rig, he shouldn't be there.

Setting up monitors and FOH for a solo act shouldn't take longer than 1 to 2 minutes. If they can't be dialed in within that period of time, the so-called sound tech should be sent packing, as he obviously has no clue.

Are you a sound guy? I am.

The gear DOES matter.

I once had a guy try to use a kick drum mic for vocals. He said he wanted his voice to sound deeper.

I once had a guy play guiyar through an old tube radio with a 3" speaker because he thought it was hipster. And he wondered why I couldn't fix his tone.

I've had a guy get on stage with a busted snare head. He couldn't afford to buy another one so he duct taped it. Literally the whole head was covered in duct tape. You know what he thought? He thought the SOUND GUY could "EQ it to sound like a regular snare drum".

I've been hired to run sound for an outdoor festival and showed up to two 10" mains on a stick!


I'm so stinking tired of the attitude around here that "If a sound guy knows what he's doing, he can work with whatever we give him".

Tell you what. Next time you get ready to build a deck, how bout I hand you a frozen fish to drive nails with and a butter knife to cut lumber with. Come one now! If you reeeeeeeeally know what you're doing, you could make it work!

Gimme a break....

 

[LHbassist]

After years of having issues with and being frustrated at the actions of sound people, I decided to do several things. I simply ask for some bass in my monitor, and no kick. And the rest of the mix, accordingly. If it sucks, I literally use my foot to spin the monitor so that it fires mostly away from me directly. The worst thing to me- is the disrespect. And I've felt like it is too often shown to players. See below for the caveat. I've politely asked sound people to please keep the kick down in the stage area subs. What usually happens? Pretty good at soundcheck, and overearing, bass burying subs on the gig. Why? It's like they're WANTING a fight! What I do now? I say zero. Nothing. Because sound people, as professional and cool as many are- are in some kind of dictator mode when the curtain goes up- it's their house, their mix, and your requests will be overridden. Unless YOU are a huge star, or you're paying them. And I know why this is.
Many of them are musicians that aren't playing much. They become weary of petty, ego-driven up-and-comers and wannabees..who believe they're the next big thing. I've seen it in some of the bands I work with.
My suggestion to the O.P., bring YOUR OWN personal monitor, and a small mixer. Mix yourself, hear yourself- and just send the sound person a DI. Done. Bypass the drama. Some may give you grief, but really, if your personal monitor system is small and unobtrusive, it shouldn't interfere with their stage mix. You could do your own in-ears, and eliminate having another speaker onstage.
Bottom line- the sound person isn't really going to do what you want. Be your own sound engineer. What I do now, is show up- plug my rig in, whatever it is, and play. If is sounds bad, it's not my problem. I do the gig, don't complain, and finish, get paid, go home..and I don't lay in bed at night dreaming of tying up the offending sound person in a soundproof cubicle, and playing Yoko Ono's greatest hit at 125Db.

 

[BooDoggie]

It's like watching the guy have all the fader's at 0db and mix with the trim/gain controls!

Ha... Funny you should bring that up. I recently had to go back into a church that I had set up to reset the entire board because they got a new member that knew how to run a sound system. I had already trained a young girl on their mixing board, but he pushed her aside and took it on himself to "fix" the sound. He had set all of the faders to 0db and "fixed" the mix by adjusting the gains on every channel giving no regard whatsoever to what was happening to the monitor mixes. He wasn't very happy when I showed up by request of the worship leader and told him he had everything backwards. He was even bragging to me when I arrived about how he had reset everything to how it should be...

 

[buldog5151bass]

Yeah, it sounds like the"sound professional" F'ed up. But that happens - the issue is how you deal with it, during and after. Unless the person with whom you are talking is honestly interested, never bad mouth the person you worked. In this case, OP bad mouthed the sound person to the person who probably hired him.

Question. How was the act that followed you?

 

[rtslinger]

If it is a in house sound guy, who works for the club, better off saying nothing. Had you said nothing
and you performed at the best of your ability under the circumstance, you may have had a foot still in the door.
I would have approached the sound guy after the show and asked him what you could have done differently?
This way you can give him the opportunity to tell you what he was dealing with on his end. Maybe your mic was too hot, and you should have used a Di, maybe he would have said I am still trying to figure out this new mixer, there are no monitors, because the club told him it wasn't in the budget, and you could have offered to bring your personal one with you next time to help with that. Either way you build a foundation for a working relationship for future gigs in the club. Telling the guy who may have hired this guy he doesn't know what he's doing, usually also speaks of the person who hired him and you for that matter.

 

[BooDoggie]

After years of having issues with and being frustrated at the actions of sound people, I decided to do several things. I simply ask for some bass in my monitor, and no kick. And the rest of the mix, accordingly. If it sucks, I literally use my foot to spin the monitor so that it fires mostly away from me directly. The worst thing to me- is the disrespect. And I've felt like it is too often shown to players. See below for the caveat. I've politely asked sound people to please keep the kick down in the stage area subs. What usually happens? Pretty good at soundcheck, and overearing, bass burying subs on the gig. Why? It's like they're WANTING a fight! What I do now? I say zero. Nothing. Because sound people, as professional and cool as many are- are in some kind of dictator mode when the curtain goes up- it's their house, their mix, and your requests will be overridden. Unless YOU are a huge star, or you're paying them. And I know why this is.
Many of them are musicians that aren't playing much. They become weary of petty, ego-driven up-and-comers and wannabees..who believe they're the next big thing. I've seen it in some of the bands I work with.
My suggestion to the O.P., bring YOUR OWN personal monitor, and a small mixer. Mix yourself, hear yourself- and just send the sound person a DI. Done. Bypass the drama. Some may give you grief, but really, if your personal monitor system is small and unobtrusive, it shouldn't interfere with their stage mix. You could do your own in-ears, and eliminate having another speaker onstage.
Bottom line- the sound person isn't really going to do what you want. Be your own sound engineer. What I do now, is show up- plug my rig in, whatever it is, and play. If is sounds bad, it's not my problem. I do the gig, don't complain, and finish, get paid, go home..and I don't lay in bed at night dreaming of tying up the offending sound person in a soundproof cubicle, and playing Yoko Ono's greatest hit at 125Db.

This is meant as a joke right ???

An actual sound engineer will know his system and its limits, and if they are in the same venue time after time they will know the room and its acoustical quirks and know how to deal with them. A hack is a hack no matter how much or what kind of PA gear you throw at them and no matter what room they are in.

 

[two fingers]

This is meant as a joke right ???

An actual sound engineer will know his system and its limits, and if they are in the same venue time after time they will know the room and its acoustical quirks and know how to deal with them. A hack is a hack no matter how much or what kind of PA gear you throw at them and no matter what room they are in.

The question then becomes "When is it beneficial to confront said sound guy?".

Sure, there are hacks out there. But when should you lock horns with them? They have the approval of "the boss" if they are house sound guys/gals. You don't. You're just another bass player in just another band. They will still be open tomorrow night if you throw a fit. But how many tantrums is too many before you start struggling to fill your calendar as much as you want?

 

[brianrost]

How do you handle sound person problems?

I ignore them. Most times, I will never encounter that sound person or play that venue ever again.

-- Once I was told my stage level was too high. I finally had the volume all the way off and was told my stage level was still too high, so I turned around and acted like I was doing something to the amp. Played the rest of the gig hearing just the room sound reflected back onstage. BTW, I had played the same venue with the same band many times and only this one time was there an issue.

-- Doing a DI/ampless gig the soundcheck went fine but when we started our set the bass was off in the monitors. I played the first song unable to hear anything, when we finished I just told the BL to ask for more bass in the monitors.

 

[BooDoggie]

The question then becomes "When is it beneficial to confront said sound guy?".

The answer to this is NEVER... They can make or break you. I've worked on both sides of this argument... nobody wins in the end. You work with what you have and make the best you can of it.

 

[micguy]

I agree the audio tech should adjust the gain on the channel strip rather than having you adjust the level of the amp. However, is it possible the tech was basically saying your amp is too loud?

With this, I disagree (I've run FOH gobs of times). Getting levels on stage in the right range, where musicians are loud enough that can hear themselves, but soft enough that the audience isn't hearing all stage wash is absolutely the right way to approach things. That person knows what works in that place, you don't. If you want to sound good, comply.

When you're dealing with a sound person, or others in the place, keep in mind a couple of things:

1) The sound person is ultimately the person that's controlling how you sound to the audience, and knows the place and how he or she gets good sound better than you. Whatever you can do to work with them will get better results than starting from an adversarial position or questioning their methods or competence.

2) The sound person is someone that the owner or manager of the place knows, and likely trusts. Saying anything negative about that person to the owner or manager is a one way ticket to never playing that place again.

A true professional musician is one who can do their craft well even in difficult circumstances - having worked with a lot of them as a FOH person, I see this in spades - they might ask about something, and if I can comply with a request, I do. If it won't work, I'll say why, they say thanks and we move on. The best ones don't complain when it gets tough, they learn how to work with what they've got, rather than complain about what isn't ideal. The exact same thing can be said about sound folks.

Wherever you go, you're in the same boat with the other people you're working with. Don't piss in the boat.

 

[Boundary Effect]

Gear does matter if you are bringing a microphone. I played a show with a guy who insisted on using his vintage Shure Unidyne 55, not a newer version. Lots of feedback and weirdness in the monitors when the sound guy turned him up. Around and around it goes with the sound guy and performer getting pissed at each other. Sound guy puts a SM58 in front of him, clear, plenty of gain before feedback, etc. That fifty plus year old microphone is probably not performing near it's 50 year old specification, let alone at today's standards. The performer was having none of it.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

So I wanted to post an experience because I appear to have had a fallout with a local venue and wanted to see what others would have done. I know this is a bass forum but I play a bunch of different instruments, including guitar so here goes.

I was asked to perform as a solo opening act for a local venue that has a good crowd in the summertime. I showed up when asked to run through a quick soundcheck and ran into some behavior from the sound person that left me confused. First off, after placing a mic in front of my amp they wanted to set the channel levels by having me adjust the volume of my amp until their meters were happy, rather than adjusting the gain/level at the mixer... seriously?? Secondly, they were unable to provide a usable monitor mix due to feedback issues, which they blamed on the microphone that I had brought, even though the person running the board commented several times that they had recently upgraded their mixer and they didn't really know how to use it. Since I only had 20-30 minutes to run the soundcheck and they never got the issues worked out I was forced to play my entire set with virtually no monitors, which as everyone knows, sucks. After limping through a 45 minute set screaming at the top of my lungs to try to hear myself I was kind of embarrassed and pissed. (Large PA stacks way out to the sides and in front)

After my show I apologized to the guy that hired me, because I knew the performance and the sound suffered due to sound issues. I tried to politely explain that the sound person had struggled with equipment and wasn't able to work things out during sound check. I probably questioned wether they knew what they were doing.

Needless to say, I was never asked back to this one venue, which is only a bummer because it's popular and has a good crowd. I'm guessing it's probably because I made a point to say something to the booking guy. I still play plenty of other places and have never run into these kinds of issues... am I better off? Is it better not to say anything at all? How do you handle sound person problems?

My post below is based on the assumption that the sound company is not a bunch of rank amateurs, and were using decent equipment. Also, they were providing FOH sound.

Sounds like a communication issue on both sides. Sound engineers are not mind readers. They also deal with players that run the gamut from good to lousy, loud to quiet, huge dynamics, guys than need uber amounts of low end to twangers. There are trying to do a job as quickly and as efficiently as possible.

You want a good sound? Use a DI instead of a microphone or use both. Keep in mind, the lower your stage volume is , the better monitors work. A band can be so loud on stage that monitors are useless. Which sound like this may be the case.

Also there is a difference when using FOH support. Your rig is a personal monitor for just you. Anybody else that needs bass can get it through the monitor system within reason.

As for sharing your dissatisfaction with the promoter, well, the apology was in good form, and could have been left off at “I was having trouble hearing”. Throwing shade at the sound company as an excuse might not have been such a good idea. The guy could have been the promoters wife’s brother’s kid for all ya know, or it could have been taken as an insult that he hired this company in the first place.

Nobody like to blow a gig with good potential, and I have some empathy for you having blown more than a few gig over the last few. EST wishes going forward.

 

[Bartpop]

I don't know anything about your act, and you didn't include very much information. But from your avatar it looks like you are playing an acoustic guitar to back yourself up. That would be typical for a solo performance. So, why are you even using an amp on stage for a solo performance, when the venue has sound? At a gig like that, your way better off using a DI and sending a feed from your acoustic guitar's (piezo) pickups directly to the soundboard. Your guitar will sound fine. Don't make things more complicated than they need to be! And for gosh sake, if you are playing solo electric, dump the electric guitar. It's more trouble than its worth.

Hi Pete, I guess I left out a lot of details from this story on purpose. I didn't want the story is about technical details as much as dealing with personality conflicts, people that blow you off or muck things up through incompetence, and how to deal with it. I think the thing I've come away with is that if you're going to gig, you're going to have to suck-it-up and smile through all sorts of things going wrong... no matter what. Kind of like life.

It's interesting to get people's takes and it's allowed me to get all sorts of perspectives, which will be helpful in the future. As for my example, I'm pretty sure that the promoter who paid me peanuts to open the show likely hired said sound gal (a fact that I deliberately left out) and paid her peanuts to run the board. Whether she knew what she was doing or not, she definitely wasn't paying attention to me or the board during my set. Looking at the email I wrote the promoter a year ago, it mentions that she left the kick drum on MUTE for the first 20 minutes. (FYI, I'm a bit of an unusual act. I've play electric guitar, vocals, harmonica overtop kick drum and snare that I play standing up with my heels. Sometimes I add low end using a Boss OC3 on poly mode, laying down a bass line with my thumb. I didn't do that at this gig.) As I'm only one guy putting out a lot of sound, muting the kick for 20 minutes would be on par with muting a DI'd bass for twenty minutes in a regular band... completely killed the low end.

Part of this is technical for sure. The other part was that the sound person didn't really care about their contribution, at least not for my portion of the show (that's definitely the vibe I got). They put in a minimal effort, didn't really have time to communicate, and seemed more interested in other things than running the board. Once again, their pay was likely minimal like mine. For what it's worth, I tried to do most of the things that people have mentioned to make things idiot-proof. I offered to use my rack mixer as a stage box and my own mics that were already gain-staged to my setup so the FOH could just connect to the DI outputs and still have control over every channel and I could monitor with my IEMs... but I think that idea seemed like quantum physics to them.

Always a learning experience. Feels like I learned a lot by getting responses on this forum as well.

 

[LowRick]

When dealing with a sound guy, always look menacing.

 

[Biggbass]

OP: unfortunately it sounds like you weren't working with a sound guy, but more of a guy who ended up having to run the sound system. Not a sound decision by the venue. But often, venue managers or owners think anyone can run a good sound system. And they end up with someone who has little knowledge of gain staging or EQing for the room.

We've encountered that scenario more than once and I just resort to flying by instruments, do the show that we've rehearsed and memorized and make sure it sounds good on stage.
Then, if is sounds crappy out front, it's on him and nothing needs to be said. Next time you play there, chances are the guy has been replaced by someone who is competent.