dear sound guy, thanks. (di box content)

[agedhorse]

Real sound guy meaning somebody who studies and learns as much as they can about the subject of sound and how things work and why things are done the way they are for some applications, and is willing to listen and process new information. You don't have to be an engineer or electronics geek to learn about this stuff (not necessarily in the detail I presented of course). They will tend to listen to the mix in a critical way, and understands the art of compromise.

Just like being a bass player, you have real players who study theory, practice thei asses off, take lessons, go to clinics, expose themselves to different players playing different styles and learning about their instruments and amps so they can be the best they can be. They do not need to understand the physics of how the bass works, the math involved in the scales and the mathamatical modeling of the instrument, or the manufacturing side of bass guitars.

Hope this clarifies without confusing more.

No different.

 

[Marcus Willett]

I would go one way or the other, but IME the DI will usually produce the more professional house sound, leaving you, the bassist, to dial in whatever sound you want without affecting what the sound man is left to work with.

Good post, I thought. There are ways to deal with the phase issue; it's done all the time in studio settings.

As for the quoted part I'm curious about something. Let's say I agree with you (I do to an extent, but also not). The logical conclusion of that line of thinking is that there is really no practical purpose for bass rigs. At least not those that color the signal at all; IOW pretty much every bass rig made.

If you bypass your rig (and just go bass to DI), then its' only real function is as a monitor and if so it should just be a wedge like a vocal monitor or in-ears. Rigs like the highly lauded and legendary SVT serve no purpose then other than to make the bassist think he's getting a certain tone out there but he isn't. In fact it would be a huge detriment since such a rig could easily mask imperfections in playing that a clean DI signal would expose.

So, what's the point of a bass rig then? Why buy a DB750, or (in my case) Thunderfunk or Boogie or Ampeg or any rig that colors your tone in a noticeable way if it's really for naught?

Also, wouldn't onboard preamps be a negative as well? Most soundman would want a send before any external preamp, yet somehow that same circuit inside a bass is somehow presented to the bass community as some kind of asset. Seems a bit odd, don't you think?

 

[jmattbassplaya]

Good post, I thought. There are ways to deal with the phase issue; it's done all the time in studio settings.

As for the quoted part I'm curious about something. Let's say I agree with you (I do to an extent, but also not). The logical conclusion of that line of thinking is that there is really no practical purpose for bass rigs. At least not those that color the signal at all; IOW pretty much every bass rig made.

If you bypass your rig (and just go bass to DI), then its' only real function is as a monitor and if so it should just be a wedge like a vocal monitor or in-ears. Rigs like the highly lauded and legendary SVT serve no purpose then other than to make the bassist think he's getting a certain tone out there but he isn't. In fact it would be a huge detriment since such a rig could easily mask imperfections in playing that a clean DI signal would expose.

So, what's the point of a bass rig then? Why buy a DB750, or (in my case) Thunderfunk or Boogie or Ampeg or any rig that colors your tone in a noticeable way if it's really for naught?

Also, wouldn't onboard preamps be a negative as well? Most soundman would want a send before any external preamp, yet somehow that same circuit inside a bass is somehow presented to the bass community as some kind of asset. Seems a bit odd, don't you think?

This is kind of my thought as well.

It`s sad I got into the whole DI thing AFTER I had already spent $3,000 on my rig. So now I`m thinking what`s the point of having a rig if most sound guys are going to try and just send me DI? Did I basically get screwed out of money?

 

[modulusman]

Good post, I thought. There are ways to deal with the phase issue; it's done all the time in studio settings.

As for the quoted part I'm curious about something. Let's say I agree with you (I do to an extent, but also not). The logical conclusion of that line of thinking is that there is really no practical purpose for bass rigs. At least not those that color the signal at all; IOW pretty much every bass rig made.

If you bypass your rig (and just go bass to DI), then its' only real function is as a monitor and if so it should just be a wedge like a vocal monitor or in-ears. Rigs like the highly lauded and legendary SVT serve no purpose then other than to make the bassist think he's getting a certain tone out there but he isn't. In fact it would be a huge detriment since such a rig could easily mask imperfections in playing that a clean DI signal would expose.

So, what's the point of a bass rig then? Why buy a DB750, or (in my case) Thunderfunk or Boogie or Ampeg or any rig that colors your tone in a noticeable way if it's really for naught?

Also, wouldn't onboard preamps be a negative as well? Most soundman would want a send before any external preamp, yet somehow that same circuit inside a bass is somehow presented to the bass community as some kind of asset. Seems a bit odd, don't you think?

BINGO! If you are playing gigs with minimal PA then having a nice amp is important. If you are playing for large crowds with a pro PA then not so much. The bigger nicer PA you use the less important the amp since the majority of the audience will be hearing the bass through the PA. I actually believe that big amps on stage are just a hold over from when PAs were less powerful and more for vocal reproduction.

 

[Marcus Willett]

BINGO! If you are playing gigs with minimal PA then having a nice amp is important. If you are playing for large crowds with a pro PA then not so much. The bigger nicer PA you use the less important the amp since the majority of the audience will be hearing the bass through the PA. I actually believe that big amps on stage are just a hold over from when PAs were less powerful and more for vocal reproduction.

So then you would apply this thinking to a guitarist as well? Fender Twin for smaller gigs, then guitar to DI and let the soundman sculpt a sound that works out front giving the guitarist a wedge with that finished tone (for larger venues)?

I mean if it's a good solid logical argument (and it is) then it should be applied across the board, no?

 

[JimmyM]

So then you would apply this thinking to a guitarist as well? Fender Twin for smaller gigs, then guitar to DI and let the soundman sculpt a sound that works out front giving the guitarist a wedge with that finished tone (for larger venues)?

I mean if it's a good solid logical argument (and it is) then it should be applied across the board, no?

yep. drums and horns should also get di's as well. and by golly, when it works so doggone well for bass, why aren't singer's di'd? just stick a mic cord up their butts and send them out. after all, a mic never sounds like the real thing on bass...why should we let everyone else get away with it?

and while we're at it, let's put the band in a separate room on the off chance that you hear a string rattle or a stick hit something and it interferes with the mix.

just remember...the entire joint purpose of having a band onstage is to make the soundman's job as easy as possible at all times. i know we've been told it's the other way around, but it's not.

 

[JimmyM]

Why is that ?

because there's nothing in a solid state power amp that's going to benefit the tone for a speaker di. no output transformer, no tubes. if you're looking for total cleanliness, you can get that in the PA's power amp(s).

 

[s_mcsleazy]

ive got to admit ive been screwd about by soundmen at almost every gig

now im more into home studio than live sound but everytime i hear the words d.i or box i feel like attacking the man

i have a way to get around it tho argue your case that you want to use your amp and you wont use too much low end and if he insists on making you use a d.i then use it BUT use a eq pedal because it will help shape your sound

but everytime i see a artical on this about sound guys i always have to join in

ok i admit i dont too much low end but or high end but i feel if you mic the amp right you can get a better sound than any d.i

 

[JimmyM]

don't know if "better" is the right word, but it definitely sounds better to me for what i do. for others, a di is perfectly valid. and truth be told, i'll always use a di if i think it's better than the cab they supply me, but that decision should be made by me and me alone. i'll take input, but i make the final decision.

nowadays, though, with these amazing tech 21 character pedals, i'm caring less and less about being DI'd. i have to bring a lot more bull**** on the plane with me, but i'll get my sound one way or another and the soundman is going to have to work really hard to defeat it.

 

[s_mcsleazy]

don't know if "better" is the right word, but it definitely sounds better to me for what i do. for others, a di is perfectly valid. and truth be told, i'll always use a di if i think it's better than the cab they supply me, but that decision should be made by me and me alone. i'll take input, but i make the final decision.

nowadays, though, with these amazing tech 21 character pedals, i'm caring less and less about being DI'd. i have to bring a lot more bull**** on the plane with me, but i'll get my sound one way or another and the soundman is going to have to work really hard to defeat it.

stand tall jimmy

bass players are a strong breed of musician

 

[Jerry Ziarko]

I stopped worrying about using a mic live years ago. I was having this same discussion with a highly regarded engineer whose bass mix was consistently killer. He described it to me this way. If someone demanded a mic, he gave it to them, but it was generally used for little information in conjunction with a DI. His reasoning was this. A player demands he wants a mic to get "his sound" out front. So he would use a good low end mic and then have to eq the mic signal at FOH. If the channel was not left completely flat, it was no longer a carbon copy of "his sound". So at sound check he put a mic on my rig, got me a long enough cord to make it to the front of the cabinets. He left my channel flat and I played. I thought it sounded fabulous. He then told exactly what changes he would be making as far as compression and eq. As I continued to play the sound got so much thicker and punchier. Now he said we're going to add another ingredient to the stew. He had the drummer play just his kick. He got a good level and eq on that as well. Now he explained that since the kick and and bass share some of the same frequency information, he would need to sweep the channel eq's to get the kick and the bass info to separate. (this is a whole other topic) So he had us start to play and had me listen as he performed his magic. I thought it sounded great right off the get go, but as he tweaked, I could actually hear the two sources separate so you could hear them individually. I was grinning like a kid who just found a $10 blowing down the street. Once we were finished, he went into a bit of detail about sweeping. He said it was too bad most engineers don't bother to learn this concept. It is what separates the average to good, from the great. He said, always strive for a good sound on stage. It will help your performance as well as that of the band. Also he told me always keep a good DI available. Find one that works for you, and let that become part of your rig as well. Since then, I learned to trust the person at FOH to do his job. Sometimes it won't be perfect or exactly as I want. I can't control that from the stage. I found a great DI that gets used every time. When told here is the line for the bass, I'm often asked how do I want to take it. I reply, I have a DI that I love, and I think you will also. (Just for info, it's a Cable Factory DI-PRO P-1) When the night is over, I take the time to go over the bass sound with the person at FOH. Cooperation on both sides generally gets the best results.

 

[agedhorse]

Nicely put Jerry.

A (good) sound guy will do the best he can with what's available. If the signal coming from the bass rig is compromised, some of the tools have been taken away from the engeieer in getting a bass sound that sits well in the mix as well as the room. There's no way a bass player can know this without being out in the room during sound check or the gig. The bass amp is good for covering the stage and the front rows of audience. After that, let the PA pick up the rest along with everything else mixed as a cohesive source.

Also, a good engineer will fine tune the channel eq if necessary as the room fills up or band dynamics change, something that the bass player can't hope to do effectively since he would have to be out in the room to hear what's changing.

This assumes, of course, that it's a "real" PA.

 

[OriginalCrash]

Now I'll grant you that my next act was very unprofessional...

I got so pissed I turned my amp OFF. There was also NO bass in the monitors at all. Still the guy was complaining (he was unaware I had turned off).

I don't call that unprofessional. I call it a very effective way to get your point across and much more "professional" than getting in a pissing match over it. I once did something similar. The room I was playing in was, unfortunately, a TERRIBLE room for bass. The sound men kept requesting that I turn down... Once I got to the point where I could barely hear myself and was asked again, I spoke up. The band leader, tired of hearing "turn down" and dealing with this, I suppose, took a very firm stance of, "I don't care; turn down," basically. So I turned down... and could no longer hear myself... and proceeded to play every note in the next song wrong (this was a practice with plenty of time available to us). I asked him afterward if he noticed anything about my playing... Big surprise that he said no... and big surprise that when I told him what I did, I got to turn back up to where I could at least hear myself.

 

[Marcus Willett]

Also, a good engineer will fine tune the channel eq if necessary as the room fills up or band dynamics change, something that the bass player can't hope to do effectively since he would have to be out in the room to hear what's changing.

Good post (as usual). I don't disagree with the needs of FOH versus stage and and its' associated issues.

The thing I've never heard a satisfactory answer to is why is it almost always the bass player and almost always just the bass player who is expected to sacrifice any and all tone sculpting his gear may give him for the "greater good" of the mix?

I've been in many bad rooms, boomy as Hell and just a pain. Soundman says he needs a clean DI signal to make it work it the house. OK, fair enough; we all have to bend for the common good.

Yet in those same situations a guitarist's amp rig can be (and has been) also boomy as Hell, dark muddy and just blurry as all get-out. Yet no effort is spared to make sure his rig is miked and that finished sound is what the soundman gets. Even if a disproportionate amount of time is spent trying to make that work and even if it still doesn't really work in the house.

It's never suggested for one moment that the guitarist give up his tone sculpting for the mix, no matter how detrimental it may be...it's just accommodated and whatever adjustments needed are done; even if they are insufficient and fall short.

Other than the usual "Bass is different" or "Bass frequencies are omni-directional" kinda stuff, I've yet to ever hear someone answer that, and those excuses are pretty weak as well considering the overlap involved particularly with guitarists who insist on playing chords on all 6 strings all the time; which happens a lot.

This isn't even getting into guys playing organ (which can often have WAY more low end than bass) with a leslie with a heavy left hand.

It is almost universal that it's the bassist and usually only the bassist who is expected to give. Even if it's a gig where he's going to be soloing a lot and his "solo tone" is (just like a guitarist) a product of his rig.

 

[fokof]

because there's nothing in a solid state power amp that's going to benefit the tone for a speaker di. no output transformer, no tubes. if you're looking for total cleanliness, you can get that in the PA's power amp(s).

So a guy with a Solid state amp can't have those DI?

I didn't know there was segregation between tubes and SS amps as DI goes...

 

[ihateusernames]

Fun thread, surprised how civil it is.

Nothing to add but entertaining banter regarding turning off - the last full band I played with had a regular engineer who I befriended. He got pissed @ a club owner one night complaining about too much bass and kick drum and told me to turn down as my stage volume was bleeding over - big surprise to me as I rarely carry enough volume to balance to drummer on stage, but no problem, I cut my low eq on stage and turned master down to the point of no audible stage monitoring for anyone else in the band (bass to FOH by DI direct from bass, 300 watt amp through BFM Omni10)

Halfway through the next song he came on stage and told me it was still too loud and I asked him to listen to my amp from stage - he said "too loud, turn it down" I then cut the power to my entire rig @ the power strip and played 'blind' for the night.

Sure enough, next song he interrupted me to say turn it down - I said check out the lights on my amp........

On set break we discovered someone helping set up put my signal in a different channel than normal and he forgot after soundcheck haha! I still played the rest of the night with no amp, I didn't care it was a fun crowd and staying at edge of stage gave me fill from FOH.

It was really fun when the drummer invited the prima donna members of his other band on stage to play a song. The 'Bassist' whined and cried and bitched and moaned for 5 minutes about my amp not being on, not being able to hear himself.....bleh. I told him to stop complaining or get off my stage, I don't have time for non-professional musicians. He looked like he wanted to hit me, I said your call buddy shut up or put my bass down I can play that song upside down, left handed, backwards, behind my back, lying on the stage.....he turned all the knobs on my Sterling wide open and hacked his way through a Gun's N Roses song and never said thanks - then after the show complimented my playing, tone, and ability to make it through the night with no monitoring.

I'm speaking from the perspective of a RECREATIONAL level, most of us are and that's a simple distinction many forumites lose sight of *yes, I know who the pro's are here - thank you for your contributions* - After 20 years I'm to the point of just going with the flow - I can't recall one night when EVERYTHING was perfect with a show/sound.

DI, mic, ask me to run wide open and carry FOH with stage volume, play with nothing on stage at all - doesn't really matter. Heck, trade me places and play my set while I mix FOH. I wish more 'musicians' would just have fun and stop complaining. A good friend played an acoustic solo set @ a club lat that was being renovated - WHILE HE PLAYED. The sound cut out completely, FOH shorted out, lights on and off. He NEVER complained one time until in private after the show, never stopped his music, never missed a note - kept singing, playing, smiling and putting on a good show.

 

[fokof]

The thing I've never heard a satisfactory answer to is why is it almost always the bass player and almost always just the bass player who is expected to sacrifice any and all tone sculpting his gear may give him for the "greater good" of the mix?

I would use a DI for an "Electronic keyboard" player. I say electronic as opposed to Vintage stuff like hammond , clavinet , mellotron & stuff.
I would not mike his monitor/amp.

I would use a DI on acoustic gtr as well over a mike , in a live situation , in a heart beat. Of course if the pickup sound like sh!t , I'd put a mike.

Same thing with any acoustic instrument that has a good pickup.
In a smaller room/PA , a mike could often be better but in large venue with big time power , a DI is wayyyyyyyy better.
Same thing with a piano, Of course the sound of a grand in a controlled environement is un-equaled , but sometimes , the electronic piano is better.
Like on a festival situation where you don't have much time for sound check , I wouldn't ask for a grand in my band !

Also don't forget that the sound of a bass cab (as opposed to a gtr cab) benefits largely from the coupling FX of multiple speaker + the vents (bass reflex) + the proximity (distance).All those things can't be capture with close miking in a live situation.
What's the point of wanting to have the amp's tone since it's an impossible task to capture exactly?

 

[Marcus Willett]

. What's the point of wanting to have the amp's tone since it's an impossible task ?

Difficult? Sure. Impossible? Please

 

[Marcus Willett]

I would use a DI for an "Electronic keyboard" player. I say electronic as opposed to Vintage stuff like hammond , clavinet , mellotron & stuff.
I would not mike his monitor/amp.

Bad analogy. The keyboard sound is "done" when it leaves the unit. Chorus, delay, verb, whatever...it's all there by the time you get it. A proper analogy would be the raw sample and waveform without any internal processing in the snyth. Your answer reveals that your basic position is that the bass tone is "done" at the 1/4" jack. It is not for me and for many others.

Also don't forget that the sound of a bass cab (as opposed to a gtr cab) benefits largely from the coupling FX of multiple speaker + the vents (bass reflex) + the proximity (distance)

Moreso, perhaps. But the laws of physics aren't suddenly suspended when you get to 80Hz.

I've got a jazz gig I do where I use a very specific amp. I'm quite literally soloing on just about every song. I use that amp on that gig because it gives me the solo tone I want which I will not get with a DI. So, the guitarist gets to keep his solo tone but not me?

 

[JimmyM]

I stopped worrying about using a mic live years ago. I was having this same discussion with a highly regarded engineer whose bass mix was consistently killer. He described it to me this way. If someone demanded a mic, he gave it to them, but it was generally used for little information in conjunction with a DI. His reasoning was this. A player demands he wants a mic to get "his sound" out front. So he would use a good low end mic and then have to eq the mic signal at FOH. If the channel was not left completely flat, it was no longer a carbon copy of "his sound". So at sound check he put a mic on my rig, got me a long enough cord to make it to the front of the cabinets. He left my channel flat and I played. I thought it sounded fabulous. He then told exactly what changes he would be making as far as compression and eq. As I continued to play the sound got so much thicker and punchier. Now he said we're going to add another ingredient to the stew. He had the drummer play just his kick. He got a good level and eq on that as well. Now he explained that since the kick and and bass share some of the same frequency information, he would need to sweep the channel eq's to get the kick and the bass info to separate. (this is a whole other topic) So he had us start to play and had me listen as he performed his magic. I thought it sounded great right off the get go, but as he tweaked, I could actually hear the two sources separate so you could hear them individually. I was grinning like a kid who just found a $10 blowing down the street. Once we were finished, he went into a bit of detail about sweeping. He said it was too bad most engineers don't bother to learn this concept. It is what separates the average to good, from the great. He said, always strive for a good sound on stage. It will help your performance as well as that of the band. Also he told me always keep a good DI available. Find one that works for you, and let that become part of your rig as well. Since then, I learned to trust the person at FOH to do his job. Sometimes it won't be perfect or exactly as I want. I can't control that from the stage. I found a great DI that gets used every time. When told here is the line for the bass, I'm often asked how do I want to take it. I reply, I have a DI that I love, and I think you will also. (Just for info, it's a Cable Factory DI-PRO P-1) When the night is over, I take the time to go over the bass sound with the person at FOH. Cooperation on both sides generally gets the best results.

FOR JERRY ONLY: this all can't be done with a mic just as well?

FOR EVERYONE ELSE, NOT JERRY: marcus is right...if there's any sacrificing to be done, it's always the bass player. take away every little bit of control the bass player has so it makes the equipment he brings moot and makes the soundman's job easier, even if the bass players ends up with a sound that sucks in the house.

well i'm not taking it anymore. i will listen to any soundman if he has a suggestion that improves things for me on my own terms, but after 35 years, i think i know a little something about what sounds good and what doesn't. so when the soundman tells me that he's not going to get a mic for me because a di is always better, or when i plug the di into the speaker and he comes up and tells me that i'm going to unplug it and run it straight into the board WITHOUT EVEN TRYING IT, i calmly tell them no i'm not, and if they give me any crap, i will stand firm, and sometimes if they're really obnoxious, i will remind them who is drawing people to the event.

and honestly, i'm getting really tired of bass players and soundmen telling me i'm my own worst enemy, that i don't know what's going on elsewhere, that a mic is always the wrong thing to use, etc. the fact is none of you have any idea what i know and what i don't. the fact is i know exactly what i'm doing, and when things get done my way, the house sound (which i almost always go off stage to check out at least once during a gig) is always better when things are done my way, and is often very thin and "jazzy" when i don't get my way.

i say this to nobody in particular...i have no problem with anything anyone else wants to do...you want to di? great. just don't come at me with your nonsense about how i'm doing it all wrong because i don't like what you like. bassists need to stop with this annoying attitude that we're idiots if we don't do exactly what they do.

EDIT: I want to make it clear i'm also not talking to Andy (agedhorse). Andy is one of those guys i would do anything he says even if i didn't like it at first because i know he's got my best interests at heart. the rest of you just sound like you're trying to avoid work.