dear sound guy, thanks. (di box content)

[agedhorse]

If the lower level sound guys completely changed their approach, in that they focused on the very basics of building a mix and staying out of trouble instead of worying about having the latest cool digital "cool dude" device, they would end up with a much better end product IMO. It's not all that tough to keep it simple and do it well. Of course, I take a lot of crap for this general suggestion.

Let me put it in another way... I would MUCH rather listen to a band playing within their abilities and executing simplified material well than executing more complicated material only so-so. Here's the million dollar hint... so would most of the audience.

 

[MikeBass]

Am I the only getting sick of this topic? If everyone else's mix sucks to you then bring your own PA and run your own sound. If you are using someone else's PA because you can't afford your own then stfu and just play! Chances are the reason why the soundman is hired to sit behind the desk instead of you is because he knows more than you.

Yes, I am a soundman but first and foremost I am a bassist. Based on the topics discussed on this forum I am ashamed to say that I am a bassist. Bassists are the whiniest and bitchiest little girls in the music industry!

Okay I guess I'm a bad guy because I hate the fact that you "bass players" are bitching and whining about not getting what you want. Fricken grow up! If you are as great of a musician as you think you are, you would be willing to compromise with what you have to work with. If not then you are more than welcome to lug around a PA system and run your own sound. That's the only way that you are going to be completely happy because obviously no one else can get it right.

You play bass, I run sound okay? (MIDDLE FINGER)

Here let me help shove that stick further up your a$$

Wow, I hope you don't run sound like your attitude, because if you do, you must suck..........
"Chances are the reason why the soundman is hired to sit behind the desk instead of you is because he knows more than you."
That line right there shows me that you really have no business sitting behind the desk.
None.
Bottom line is you NEVER know who is on stage. I've played with some great musicians who are monster sound guys. So be careful with that attitude.
And if a FOH engineer is any good, then there really should be no problem taking the artists "sound" and making it work for their mix.
A bit of a compromise on BOTH sides might be necessary.

Well, I don't consider myself a "great musician", but I'm not too shabby, so up to a point, I'm not willing to compromise if I have a sound guy who thinks he knows what's best for my bass.
I would hope, and this is a WILD hope here, that after 20+ years of gigging in front of as little as 5, to as much as 15,000 + people on tour, I have a pretty good idea of what I would like. And what works.
Now, it's the FOH engineer's job to make that happen. IF he can. if there is a logical reason he can't, out side of the lame a$$ excuse of dropping all bass players into the same group, then he better explain it to me.

If he/you just sets a DI on top of my amp and plugs me into it and that's it, he/you are going to get questioned about it.
Like others, I've worked hard and long to get "my sound" and to have it instantly dismissed like that is pretty un-professional and well, rude.

I've literally unplugged my bass from a DI and plugged it into the back of my amp a BUNCH of times when "sound guys" have done this.
And I am yet to ever have one A) notice- which ALWAYS cracks me up, and B) complain how my bass sounds. In fact, I don't think I ever had a sound guy complain.

Now, my tone straight into a DI is pretty darn nice to be honest. So really, I don't mind going out direct to FOH.
In fact I usually carry my own DI to fly in gigs, so I know how to get the pre-amp on my bass as well as the EQ on my pedal board to give me what I want.
But this comes from too many years of "sound guys" not giving a crap about what I've worked on.
So, I found ways around them.

BTW, pretty much all of the clips on my MySpace page are direct off my amp or pedal board/DI.
And they are a pretty good representation of what I give the FOH. It's almost exactly what I send them.

Good input=good output.

Tomis17, I just hope you're having a bad day about this. Because if this is how you approach things, you wouldn't last 2 gigs in the circles I play in.

 

[fokof]

forget that. i worked a long time to get to the point where i could boss soundmen around and i'll be damned if i'm going to let them crap on our band because "i don't like that sound.....

When I was younger , I really was a control freak too and me too , had problem dealing with other professionals around me ,but now, it's getting better.

There is hope.....

 

[fokof]

10. Rarely am I considered lazy, but if I do not throw a bass mic up right away you can be assured that I am working through one of a dozen other things that may be more important within the context of the whole mix and the big picture.

Carefull , you're gonna get crucified for that one!


+1 for the whole answer.

 

[Marcus Willett]

When I was younger , I really was a control freak too and me too , had problem dealing with other professionals around me ,but now, it's getting better

Well, for me the thing is nothing to do with control; it's respect and uniformity.

It makes no more sense for the soundman to be presumptively correct in knowing how the bass "should" sound in a mix and by extension what gear should/must be used to make it so...than it does for him to have the same say in regards to a guitarist.

If a bassist has selected specific gear towards a specific tone goal; then just as with a guitarist he (soundman) should at the very least use that end tone as a starting point and then perhaps try other options if for some reason that is not working.

If a bassist is showing up to a gig with a specific rig and saying "I'm using this gear because it gives me the tone I want", the soundman has no more right to dismiss that by saying "Well, why don't you just forget all that and gimme a DI send so I can make it the way it should be", than he would have saying the same thing to a guitarist.

 

[JimmyM]

When I was younger , I really was a control freak too and me too , had problem dealing with other professionals around me ,but now, it's getting better.

There is hope.....

i am the nicest guy in the world on a gig. soundmen love me. just let me do my thing and work with it and show me you're on my side, and you will have a very pleasant experience. it's only the ones who try to dictate to me about how i'm going to sound that i have a problem.

 

[Tomis17]

Wow, I hope you don't run sound like your attitude, because if you do, you must suck..........
"Chances are the reason why the soundman is hired to sit behind the desk instead of you is because he knows more than you."
That line right there shows me that you really have no business sitting behind the desk.
None.
Bottom line is you NEVER know who is on stage. I've played with some great musicians who are monster sound guys. So be careful with that attitude.
And if a FOH engineer is any good, then there really should be no problem taking the artists "sound" and making it work for their mix.
A bit of a compromise on BOTH sides might be necessary.

Well, I don't consider myself a "great musician", but I'm not too shabby, so up to a point, I'm not willing to compromise if I have a sound guy who thinks he knows what's best for my bass.
I would hope, and this is a WILD hope here, that after 20+ years of gigging in front of as little as 5, to as much as 15,000 + people on tour, I have a pretty good idea of what I would like. And what works.
Now, it's the FOH engineer's job to make that happen. IF he can. if there is a logical reason he can't, out side of the lame a$$ excuse of dropping all bass players into the same group, then he better explain it to me.

If he/you just sets a DI on top of my amp and plugs me into it and that's it, he/you are going to get questioned about it.
Like others, I've worked hard and long to get "my sound" and to have it instantly dismissed like that is pretty un-professional and well, rude.

I've literally unplugged my bass from a DI and plugged it into the back of my amp a BUNCH of times when "sound guys" have done this.
And I am yet to ever have one A) notice- which ALWAYS cracks me up, and B) complain how my bass sounds. In fact, I don't think I ever had a sound guy complain.

Now, my tone straight into a DI is pretty darn nice to be honest. So really, I don't mind going out direct to FOH.
In fact I usually carry my own DI to fly in gigs, so I know how to get the pre-amp on my bass as well as the EQ on my pedal board to give me what I want.
But this comes from too many years of "sound guys" not giving a crap about what I've worked on.
So, I found ways around them.

BTW, pretty much all of the clips on my MySpace page are direct off my amp or pedal board/DI.
And they are a pretty good representation of what I give the FOH. It's almost exactly what I send them.

Good input=good output.

Tomis17, I just hope you're having a bad day about this. Because if this is how you approach things, you wouldn't last 2 gigs in the circles I play in.

Mike, the point I was trying to make is exactly what you are trying to saying. Different tone but exactly what you are saying. Yes, it is a compromise. Not everyone will get EXACTLY what they want. Not even the soundman. If the soundman is not able to pin point the exact sound you want, as long as it is close, live with it. You as a musician have to understand that it's hard to get the exact sound you want as there are many factors that dictate your sound. The reality of it is that the live sound environment is not a controlled environment and conversely can be very chaotic. So to expect a soundman to do everything exactly as you requested is impossible.

Just for the record, I am a bassist first and a soundman second so I understand what some of you are trying to achieve. For a long time I only wanted my 810 cab mic'ed up. I was completely against DI because I wanted "MY SOUND". Well we played at a gig where the acoustics of the room were horrible and "MY SOUND" sounded like sh!t so I tried the DI. It actually came out better than the mic. I'm not saying that DI is the way to go. My point is that you may not think that something is the "right", but for different situations the DI may work.

 

[bassboysam]

I used to have lots of issues with soundguys. They always wanted a completely dry signal to the FOH and they would then sculpt it from there. The thing is I have spent lots of time and money trying to get the sound that I like and fits in our band and to me it seemed like such a waste to not mic the cab.

Then one day I placed my DI after the speaker out of my amp. The soundguy loved it, been doing that ever since, usually I don't even tell the soundguy what I am doing they just assume because it is the DI that it will be "dry". Works everytime. I carry an extra DI just incase they really want a dry signal but I have never had to use it yet.

 

[jhan]

This is why I've yet to get another 410HLF. I know it 'aint gonna make much difference.

 

[agedhorse]

I used to have lots of issues with soundguys. They always wanted a completely dry signal to the FOH and they would then sculpt it from there. The thing is I have spent lots of time and money trying to get the sound that I like and fits in our band and to me it seemed like such a waste to not mic the cab.

Then one day I placed my DI after the speaker out of my amp. The soundguy loved it, been doing that ever since, usually I don't even tell the soundguy what I am doing they just assume because it is the DI that it will be "dry". Works everytime. I carry an extra DI just incase they really want a dry signal but I have never had to use it yet.

As a sound guy, if you ever hooked the DI up to the output of an amp that was bridged or a class D amp that used a bridged output section (most of them), and you damaged my $20k console (or any console for that matter) by doing this, I can assure you that you would be paying for the repair of the console no matter how much it cost. The damage would be your fault period. If you choose to do something like that behind the sound guy's back, it's on your dime. Only do this if you get explcit permission from the sound guy, then it's his fault if he doesn't understand the potential for damage with some amps.

 

[BigMac5]

As a sound guy, if you ever hooked the DI up to the output of an amp that was bridged or a class D amp that used a bridged output section (most of them), and you damaged my $20k console (or any console for that matter) by doing this, I can assure you that you would be paying for the repair of the console no matter how much it cost. The damage would be your fault period. If you choose to do something like that behind the sound guy's back, it's on your dime. Only do this if you get explcit permission from the sound guy, then it's his fault if he doesn't understand the potential for damage with some amps.

What about tube amps with a speaker DI?

 

[agedhorse]

What about tube amps with a speaker DI?

That's not a problem, there is an output transformer, the output signal is ground referenced, and if it's a balanced DI out, there's bound to be some additional isolation and pin 1 will be at ground potential. Nothing more than a volt or two difference between grounds. May cause a hum but won't cause smoke and flames.

Always ask the sound guy, it's his equipment. You guys wouldn't like it if the sound guy used your bass as a pry bar would you? (extreme example, I know)

 

[JimmyM]

just for the record, there's really no point in going speaker di on a solid state or hybrid amp anyway, so don't blow up anyone's board trying it

 

[bassboysam]

As a sound guy, if you ever hooked the DI up to the output of an amp that was bridged or a class D amp that used a bridged output section (most of them), and you damaged my $20k console (or any console for that matter) by doing this, I can assure you that you would be paying for the repair of the console no matter how much it cost. The damage would be your fault period. If you choose to do something like that behind the sound guy's back, it's on your dime. Only do this if you get explcit permission from the sound guy, then it's his fault if he doesn't understand the potential for damage with some amps.

Don't use any solid state amps. what difference does it make if the signal is going through a DI? Is it not the DI's job to make the signal useful for a mixer/recording console etc.? How could a DI signal do any damage?

 

[agedhorse]

just for the record, there's really no point in going speaker di on a solid state or hybrid amp anyway, so don't blow up anyone's board trying it

Doesn't mean that some folks won't do it because they read somewhere that it's the "best" way to do it.

 

[agedhorse]

Don't use any solid state amps. what difference does it make if the signal is going through a DI? Is it not the DI's job to make the signal useful for a mixer/recording console etc.? How could a DI signal do any damage?

The problem, as I have explained before, is that some solid state amps, as well as most solid state amps with class D output sections use a bridged design and the "-" terminal that is commonly assumed to be at ground is not. It may be biased at 1/2 the power supply voltage (maybe +50 volts) or it may be part of a full bridge and the signal component may swing as high as +/- 100 volts. When using a conventional DI, the ground path on the input is connected to pin 1 in the unlifted position and there will be a direct short between the amp's power supply and the mixer's ground and large currents will flow (until something burns open). This generally causes some very costly damage. Using an active DI will almost always result in the DI being trashed as well.

There are some custom ways around this, but nothing you will find off the shelf. There's rarely a good reason to go through this complexity and expense though, and also additional RF filtering must be included to reduce the residual HF modulation from the class D speaker signal.

This is why when a (real) sound guy say "no go" for something like this that you really want to do, there may indeed be a very good reason behind his reluctance.

Hope this helps.

 

[fokof]

just for the record, there's really no point in going speaker di on a solid state or hybrid amp anyway,

Why is that ?

 

[fokof]

This is why when a (real) sound guy say "no go" for something like this that you really want to do, there may indeed be a very good reason behind his reluctance.

Thanx for the explanation , didn't know this.

When you write ; (Real) soundman , it would have been more appropriate to write ; (electronic engineer) soundman.

I know lots of very very good soundmans who are musicians , who have a musical background, studied Jazz etc... and who would not be able to repair a toaster. Those would not know what you explain. Doesn't make them bad soundman. , on the contrary.
Electronics studies doesn't necessarily gives a better ear than a musical training to do a soundman's job. A technician job , yes no question , but not "soundman".

I would fit in that category.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

i am the nicest guy in the world on a gig. soundmen love me. just let me do my thing and work with it and show me you're on my side, and you will have a very pleasant experience. it's only the ones who try to dictate to me about how i'm going to sound that i have a problem.

+1

Show me respect and it shall be returned in full and then some. Treat me like second class dirt and I`ll make your life(or at least the night) hell.

 

[Tone Meister]

We need more of these. seriously.

I too am a sound man, a bassist, and a guitarist, and I can tell you there are more problems than simply your stage-sound EQ a FOH engineer must consider. You have to consider that the miked signal and the DI signal will be slightly out of phase with each other because the speed of electricity (DI) is faster than the speed of sound (miked speaker). The physics are a bit beyond the scope of this thread, and certainly beyond my patience to explain it fully, but unless the FOH desk has the ability to time align the two signals, the result will likely be less than stellar.

I would go one way or the other, but IME the DI will usually produce the more professional house sound, leaving you, the bassist, to dial in whatever sound you want without affecting what the sound man is left to work with.

My $0.02