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dear sound guy, thanks. (di box content)

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#341
Long wavelengths and how they interact acoustically is one reason bass guitar is so problematic. Multiple sources for low frequencies/long wavelengths takes those problems up another notch. And then there's the issues of frequency masking, and cabs that are vastly dissimilar in their spectral balance to the PA system. Until more bass players understand the physics and the system differences a little better its almost pointless to discuss why bassists don't always get treated like guitarists ... and better to just stick with the idea that cooperative attitudes and respect are about all that can advance in these circular discussions.

This is irrespective of anyone's particular philosophy about the role of a bass versus the role of some other instrument.
 
#342
agedhorse said:
Have you listened to a guitar signal direct? It's generally unuseable as is
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The thing is that's pretty much how I feel about most basses just to a DI. Both of those are just opinions tho but I find the straight DI bass tone to be about as unpleasant and uninteresting as the same with guitar.

agedhorse said:
The point of a bass head and cabinet is so that you can get your stage sound (that you can hear) where you want it and the sound guy will listen to this and generally try to achieve something similar that will fit into the FOH mix that you can't hear.
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THAT I agree with, but it happens all too rarely.

Here's a query. Even ol' fokov agreed that for my jazz scenario miking the cab made sense. OK, why? And at what point does it not? When it gets to a certain db level? When I'm not playing solos? What's the dividing line between "Yeah, I can see how you really need the cab sound" and "You need to lose that for the common good"?

Sure every situation is different (anticipating your answer). But let's say the room is the same to minimize variables.

FWIW, I enjoy your posts for the most part. ;)
 
#344
Marcus Willett said:
No disrespect but that is not accurate. You are not taking a finished tone and doing what needs to do to make it work in the mix (like you are with a guitarist). I have NO problem with that and all and encourage it, but it is not what you are saying.

You are creating a tone from scratch by taking it before it is done and making a new tone. Why is it so difficult to accept that the rig is part of my tone and if you take that away, you are bastardizing my tone and superimposing yours instead?

I'm sorry but I completely reject your premise: taking a DI send before part of my tone chain (of which the rig is an integral part) and EQing the guitarists' mic send are NOT the same thing, not remotely.
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You are misunderstanding what I am saying. I would be recreating what I hear you trying to achieve on stage with the tools that I have available, and they are completely different than what you have on stage.

If I were to take your bass cabinet miced off the stage and did nothing to it, it would sound completely different than what your cabinet sounded like because the bandwidth of my system is much different and the audience and I are listening to the bass in far-field whereas you are listening to the bass and the mic is picking up in near-field. Two completely different environments.

I understand where you are coming from, but it really is different. That's why the DI approach is so often used on bass... because it works. Just like why an electric guitar amp is generally miced... because it works better.

When I do use a DI and mic on a bass, I typically listen to both and start with whichever shows me the promise of getting to the end result quickly and efficiently. Usually I start with DI as the bed, then add mic to flavor, changing polarity as needed. Generally, I find that I use maybe 80% DI in those cases, but sometimes all DI and occasionally all mic. It really depends on a lot of variables that you as a player can't accurately judge from the stage.
 
#345
greenboy said:
Long wavelengths and how they interact acoustically is one reason bass guitar is so problematic.
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Which takes me to my next point. As much whining as I've heard on these forums and elsewhere from bassists about crap venues, sound engineers, PA systems, etc, I would think that there would be a greater percentage of these dissatisfied bassists who out of frustration and an attempt to solve the problems they think they face, would school up in acoustics, various SR tech stuff - just so they'd have a better basis for achieving their goals whether by hands-on or by delegation or cooperative efforts.

To me it's kind of like learning some theory so one can communicate with other musicians better, leverage one's playing and or writing at a higher level etc.
 
#346
Marcus Willett said:
Here's a query. Even ol' fokov agreed that for my jazz scenario miking the cab made sense. OK, why? And at what point does it not? When it gets to a certain db level? When I'm not playing solos? What's the dividing line between "Yeah, I can see how you really need the cab sound" and "You need to lose that for the common good"?

Sure every situation is different (anticipating your answer). But let's say the room is the same to minimize variables.
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Good question.

The smaller the room and the quieter the stage volume, the easier it is to use a mic and get acceptable sound. Part of this is because the near-field and far-field environments merge, and part is because typically at those kinds of gigs, everybody is playing in the context together in that near-field environment. I am also not battling LF bleed, and perhaps most of the sound is coming directly off the satge anyway. My job of supporting the bass, or drums or guitar has become easier, therefore everything is less critical.

There is no "dividing line", there are situations where one approach may work better than another and where one may work just as well as another. That's the decision that the professional sound guy should be able to make without bumbling. It's also a decision that players need to accept, otherwise, they might as well just do the sound themselves and avoid the arguments.
 
#348
Marcus Willett said:
True, but it's also true of the bottom end of guitar.
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Not really. Not only is the bass tuned lower, but the typical preponderance of energy demands is exhibited lower in the overtone series for bass than it is for guitars. And that's where the wavelengths are long enough to have way more destuctive interaction with the acoustical environment.

Even a guitarist who is a bandwidth hog usually causes problems not through LF room interaction problems, but by masking others - two entirely different issues.
 
#353
devoge said:
It's not your responsibility, reputation, or job if it sonically sounds bad, or if there's feedback, etc...what do you mean?
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It's my job to sound good just like yours, nothing more to read into it.

As to what sounds "good", nothing could be more subjective.

As for guitar low end, it's different but can be just a big a problem if not moreso because few guitarists think it is. I can't tell you how many gigs I've done where the stage was rattling because the guitar (or keys) had so much low end but everyone bitches at the bass player even if his amp is off. So IME it is a granted different but just as big a problem.
 
#354
Marcus Willett said:
It's my job to sound good just like yours, nothing more to read into it.

As to what sounds "good", nothing could be more subjective.

As for guitar low end, it's different but can be just a big a problem if not moreso because few guitarists think it is. I can't tell you how many gigs I've done where the stage was rattling because the guitar (or keys) had so much low end but everyone bitches at the bass player even if his amp is off. So IME it is a granted different but just as big a problem.
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No..it's my fault if the mix is bad, the bass sounds bad or if there's feedback because I didn't make the right decisions about the stage set-up....you don't have to worry about that
 
#355
Damn...can you tell it's my day off? :D

Here's a question I've posed many times and no one seems to want to pick up on it.

For all those "DI right out of the bass" types, what do you do about onboard pre amps? I mean Sadowsky and Fodera are two of the most respected names in the bass world and to no small extent because of the tonal effects of their preamp.

So, if I show up with the same circuit in an external box what then? Surely if those (and other) preamps impart such a great quality to the tone (as we're led to believe) then you would want the send after the box right?

Or.....?
 
#356
greenie, i totally agree. that's why i've been putting a little effort into learning about it. but at the end of the day, what i want out of the pa is basically the same thing i always wanted...i want the bass in the pa to sound like the bass in my amp.

now it's one thing to go up onstage with a totally uncontrollable sound and demand a mic. but soundmen should always love me no matter what i do because my sound is easily controllable...i use a high quality full range mic with fairly flat response, i don't ever play too loud, and my amp's tone is not too far off from any eq you would get with a di. and as a thread i wrote a couple weeks ago will attest, i am more than willing to listen to a soundman who thinks i'm screwing the pooch and will almost always accomodate one who needs a little something from me. part of the responsibility of demanding a mic or post-eq di is being able to work with a situation to the best interests of the band.

but since i've got the responsibility thing down, soundmen should 100% of the time let me get my sound into the pa the way i want and quit busting my balls. as it stands now, only about 90% of them do that, and at those shows, usually the only commentary i get from the soundman is "wow, great bass sound, dude!" and vice versa to them. the other 10% is why i'm ranting.
 
#357
devoge said:
No..it's my fault if the mix is bad, the bass sounds bad or if there's feedback because I didn't make the right decisions about the stage set-up....you don't have to worry about that
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I don't agree. For 99% of the public, if it sounds "bad" they will just think the band sounds bad. They're not going to analyze who did what or think about a soundman.
 
#358
Marcus Willett said:
It's my job to sound good just like yours, nothing more to read into it.

As to what sounds "good", nothing could be more subjective.

As for guitar low end, it's different but can be just a big a problem if not moreso because few guitarists think it is. I can't tell you how many gigs I've done where the stage was rattling because the guitar (or keys) had so much low end but everyone bitches at the bass player even if his amp is off. So IME it is a granted different but just as big a problem.
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undoubtedly, the bass usually is the one that has to be carved out if it's causing feedback problems....you can carve out the kyb and gtr, without it sounding weird, because they are multi-timbral instruments
 
#359
devoge said:
undoubtedly, the bass usually is the one that has to be carved out if it's causing feedback problems....you can carve out the kyb and gtr, without it sounding weird, because they are multi-timbral instruments
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That sounds a lot like applying EQ to a finished sound to make it work in the room.
 
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