It is not the only reason he's there....there's also the audience....but nevertheless you are being antagonistic and making it sound like we should just fulfill your needs without regard to the parameters of live reinforcement with no cooperation from the band....you're not there to cooperate with us....hmmm.....Doesn't sound like a respectful thing to say in my book. After all we are having this long discussion about the sound....right?
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dear sound guy, thanks. (di box content)
- Thread starter akaTRENT
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- Dec 18, 2000
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- greenboy designs: fEARful, bassic, dually, crazy88 etc
And now I'll step in on a counterpoint. There seems to be a lot of industry pressure on the sound engineer for a decade and more to supply incredibly loud compressed mixes with huge drums. This pressure comes from industry competitive instincts gone awry, as well as from audience expectations and even from bands and entertainers themselves, and we all know it's easy for the bass player to get outvoted when something has to give. And it always does under those circumstances.
It really takes mature sound engineering to know where to draw the lines when this is taking place. I've head many huge shows where the edge has crumbled even though the engineers are more than competent, the SR system well designed and set up, the venue decent and maybe even as optimized as it can be given the size.
That's not so different than the bush leagues where I have operated, where bands want to make a big impact and sound AWESOME D00D, which to them often means LOUD with some "so I can get my tone, man" thoughts further overrunning the stage and the venue.
Recorded product has a lot to do with all these expectations. Mixes have become way more compressed and makeup gain is piled on, and no live venue can live up to the idealized acoustic environment these mixes seem to represent.
It's a tough row to hoe unless you have a well-assembled team that has common understandings and sonic goals, and people who can go against the prevailing ethos even when it would seem like in the short term it would relieve some of the unspoken pressures if one were just to go with the flow.
It really takes mature sound engineering to know where to draw the lines when this is taking place. I've head many huge shows where the edge has crumbled even though the engineers are more than competent, the SR system well designed and set up, the venue decent and maybe even as optimized as it can be given the size.
That's not so different than the bush leagues where I have operated, where bands want to make a big impact and sound AWESOME D00D, which to them often means LOUD with some "so I can get my tone, man" thoughts further overrunning the stage and the venue.
Recorded product has a lot to do with all these expectations. Mixes have become way more compressed and makeup gain is piled on, and no live venue can live up to the idealized acoustic environment these mixes seem to represent.
It's a tough row to hoe unless you have a well-assembled team that has common understandings and sonic goals, and people who can go against the prevailing ethos even when it would seem like in the short term it would relieve some of the unspoken pressures if one were just to go with the flow.
Because , we'll get to the gig , and It would go like this ;
Fokof -Hi
Marcus - Hi
Fokof - how are you today?
Marcus - Real good you ?
Fokof - Ok working a lot but , can't be unhappy about that !
Marcus - I sure Know what you mean !!!!!
Fokof - So , here's your DI (showing a JDI)
Marcus - Oh no! , if you don't mind , I really prefer the sound of my amp being miked.
Fokof - OK , hummm , I really prefer working with a DI signal , how about both , I brought my Phazer , so I could make that work without Fuçking up too much the phases in the low end.
Marcus - That's a good compromise!
Fokof - a la bonne heure!
That's how I personaly decide.
Or after listening to the band.
Either by discussion or by listening.
By the way , it's fokof not fokov ( a palindrome )
I often go see acts that I know have a certain engineer mixing them. The sound is consistent, punchy, and ineligible. I will aviod shows where I know the band is great but hate the way they are mixed. There I said it.
Why do you think national acts keep there engineer for so long. U2 has had one since the beginning.(Joe O'Herlihy) Big Mick Hughes, who just one the Parnelli FOH award for 2009, has been with Metallica forever. Just a couple of examples, but do you think they are there just because they're good employees? They are the best at what they do. True people don't go hear U2 or MT just because of them, but they are an intricate part of that groups live performance. They are there to serve the audience just as much as the performers. Remember, a gourmet meal can be great, but if the service sucks are you going back?
Well here`s the thing. I`m on the job when I`m playing a gig. The soundman is also on a job when he`s on a gig. My job is to sound good and play. His job is to make OUR sound sound good for the venue - not to change our already established sound. Some sacrifice may be needed to help match the venue - no one is arguing that - what we are arguing is the fact that many soundmen want us to completely abandon our tone to make his life easier. They want it to be an easy job when it`s not. Not everyone is cut out to be a soundman, even though many people think they can be one with ease. I`m only willing to sacrifice so much before it`s simply a matter of the soundman just being flat out too lazy to do his job properly. If I`m doing mine to the best of my abilities, he should be too.
pure and simple...I'm the soundman....you're the bass player.....I'm responsible for the sound and if anything goes wrong with it it's my ass.
in the great world of musical showbiz, pecking order is established by how many people are paying to see someone, and how sales would be affected by that person not being there. if bowzer is not there on a bowzer show, there is no show. if i am not there, i am missed by him and the other musicians (allegedly) but otherwise nobody cares...they get a guy in to read the charts and all is well. but when i am there, my job is to make sure the bass sounds like what he wants to hear. if that means micromanaging soundmen, so be it. he is the big draw and i am working directly for him on a regular basis. nobody likes to be told what to do but sometimes it's necessary. if you have ever repeatedly gotten yelled at onstage in front of 5000 people to turn down when you're off on your amp and the subs are blasting you out, you will understand completely why i micromanage soundmen on his gigs when necessary. you soundmen never see him again for another year, sometimes never again. i gotta work with this guy!
- Dec 18, 2000
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I hate to say it, but the way to break the deadlock is not to be so damned conditional about it (you know: like conditional love?). I'm still seeing some real hierarchical patterns here that probably aren't headed for win-win situations ; }
- Feb 12, 2006
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- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
I think we need to be a little bit more accurate here...
The sound guy serves the needs of the performance and the audience, just like the band serves the needs of the preformance and the audience. Everybody is part of the performance, it's not just the band, just like it's not just the sound guy or the light guy or the pyro guy, or the video guy, or the promoter, etc. If you (really) think otherwise, you are missing the big picture, at least in the touring world. We are there to support you, not to take abuse or insults from you, or to be crippled by decisions that effectively set you up to fail.
His function is to take what the band gives him, work with the band to get the best he can to do his job well, and generate the best mix possible within the constraints of the band, stage, acoustics, audience, music style, volume, sightlines etc. If somebody in the band does not give him what he needs to work with, they will suffer in the mix no matter how much you might wish otherwise. You do not know how it sounds in the house, nor are you impartial. Most bass players, just like most of every other band member would like to hear more of me, and focus only on themselves. It's human nature. The sound guy's job is to be impartial as nest as he can to his personal tastes and generate a well balanced, consistent mix night after night.
I walked away from what appeared on the surface to be a great full time gig because the administration of the performing arts center were control freak micro-managers. They tried to dictate things being done their way without having the slightest idea what any of it ment. They read the sexy magazines and dressed the part, one of the administrators even carried an Anvil briefcase for a while. It's one thing to look the part and play pretend, it's another thing to walk the walk night after night, year after year. Everybody there was essentially set up to fail, and fail they did. The smart ones jumped ship at the earliest opportunity, but those who stayed for the most part got so totally screwed that it was often referred to as the "scapegoat theatre". There is only one person left after 6 or 7 years, out of maybe 20 people, and these were career track, full time permanent jobs with full benefits. Even the guys at the top getting the biggest bucks jumped ship. It's like a revolving door, nobody staying for more than a year. Who would want to work in that environment no matter how good the pay was?
amy, i respect your buck stops here attitude, and the fact that you're working with glen campbell speaks a lot about your talent level. that's a serious gig. but if anything goes wrong, it's mr. campbell's ass first, then the band, then the soundman. perception is 90% of reality. fortunately, you sound like you'd be a dream to work with because you care. i predict you and i would get along great.
- Feb 12, 2006
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- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
To repeat, nobody is asking anybody to abandon their tone. What we are asking for is to give us the signal that gives us a reasonable attempt at getting your tone in the context of our mix out front. That eq will be different than what you are using on stage, and will sound different than a mic 3" from the speaker cone. It's better to start with an unadulterated signal than trying to undo something first.
Maybe youy guys really work with some bad sound guys, but this is not what I see in the areas I work (fortunately).
Maybe youy guys really work with some bad sound guys, but this is not what I see in the areas I work (fortunately).
No...if there was a problem with the sound Glen Campbell would fire me....do you see where I'm going with this....amy, i respect your buck stops here attitude, and the fact that you're working with glen campbell speaks a lot about your talent level. that's a serious gig. but if anything goes wrong, it's mr. campbell's ass first, then the band, then the soundman. perception is 90% of reality. fortunately, you sound like you'd be a dream to work with because you care. i predict you and i would get along great.
If I were to allow someone to use a big ass bass cabinet in a place where it would obviously cause problems, or it could be anything....not just the bass, let's say that a vocalist wanted to be louder, and I didn't have any more without feeding back....I gotta say no. It's me that looks bad, it's me that would be possibly fired by the band/performer, it's me who the audience would be looking at like "doesn't she know what the hell she's doing?"
I'm more than happy to accomodate everyone if it can be done with the equipment and venue provided....
- Dec 18, 2000
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I gotta speculate a little how that many are even aware WHAT their "tone" is like FOH. Did they come by this awareness from an onstage mix? If so, different issue. From board recordings? Same there. Short of standing FOH and walking some floor while simultaneously being onstage and playing, how does one have any real idea how all the subjective truths are averaging out?
- Feb 8, 2005
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- Endorsing Artist: Bag End - Dean Markley - Thunderfunk
In theory I agree. In practice what I usually see is the soundman saying the band is too loud onstage and bass and drums get blamed more than anyone else. In theory you're right, in reality uh uh.
- Feb 8, 2005
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That's very true. Which is why whenever I can I'll talk to a soundman and get an idea of what they think things should sound like. If it's a jazz gig and the soundman only ever listens to speed metal....well even if he knows his stuff he's going to be predisposed to making things sound (to him) right even though it may be far from what either the performers or patrons want and expect.
- Dec 18, 2000
- 13,201
- 340
- Disclosures
- greenboy designs: fEARful, bassic, dually, crazy88 etc
That's one reason bassists seem to have more than their fair share of these rants. They are less often leaders and main performers and primary songwriters, and more often, sidemen. I guess some of that kind of comes with the turf - in the studio too.
That's a question I'm really curious to know too.
An empty room room on soundcheck and a full room when show starts is often worlds apart.....
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