dear sound guy, thanks. (di box content)

[devoge]

no, your point was to make sure that I know that you are more important than me

Geez, I'm starting to feel married or something

 

[JimmyM]

no, your point was to make sure that I know that you are more important than me

jeez, can't soundpeople be happy with making way more than us? now they have to be more important, too?

i am reminded of the famous paul anka rant, where he chewed out his band for missing cues and whatnot, and he starts yelling, "I am the only important one on that stage. it's just the way it is." on one level as a sideman it angered me, but on another level, i realized that it's just the way it is. i'm cool with that. nobody's paying to see any of us, but we have to be there.

 

[devoge]

jeez, can't soundpeople be happy with making way more than us? now they have to be more important, too?

i am reminded of the famous paul anka rant, where he chewed out his band for missing cues and whatnot, and he starts yelling, "I am the only important one on that stage. it's just the way it is." on one level as a sideman it angered me, but on another level, i realized that it's just the way it is. i'm cool with that. nobody's paying to see any of us, but we have to be there.

I'm ok with that...it was just the intent of trying to pull a little left jab in there.....blah blah blah....my needs your needs....for the love of Joseph and Mary

 

[devoge]

I'm ok with that...it was just the intent of trying to pull a little left jab in there.....blah blah blah....my needs your needs....for the love of Joseph and Mary

I've got my own battle scars too ya know...

 

[greenboy]

i don't disagree with that. hey, we're not immune to the hierarchy. on his shows, i can't say i'm easily replaced, but i'm definitely replaceable. however, i do have a bit of a trusted position and i can speak pretty freely for a band guy.

but i do a lot of other shows where i am the hierarchy because our band is the draw and the lines are a little more blurred. and you'd think even on those shows i could get what i want all the time without having to hear a bunch of guff. i wish!

More what I'm saying though is that when people leap too early to thinking about hierarchy - and thinking in terms of their position - is when things can begin to fray... That's something that should only happen if there's already some serious clashes of group purpose. How can I illustrate? Well, agedhorse has kind of shown how some established leaders who could just be total dictators are willing to give people enough rope to hang themselves because they've made a judgment call on experience, personality, skills and mindset, and then some magic moments can happen.

I've seen situations where nobody is trying to pull rank and there's no undercurrents of hostility or intimidation or anything else that I can detect, and Things Just Get Done. It's like nobody thought about protecting their parking space or their perks, and just didn't think hard enough to flinch away from trust. Confidence begets confidence. I love it when I've been a part of those larger crew scenarios, on either side of the stage front. It's like everybody is one big well-oiled machine and all energy directed to ultimate goals.

All it takes is a little insecurity or envy or whatever to trigger lesser quality events into motion ; }

 

[jmattbassplaya]

no, your point was to make sure that I know that you are more important than me

Are you trying to imply he isn`t? Don`t fool yourself - band members will always be more important than the sound man at a gig. Band members are extended family. They may share the music business, but their relationships go much further than that and being able to replace someone isn`t as easy as just finding someone who can play the part... Sound men, even at the professional level, are much more easily replaceable. Make the band sound good and sound like them or lose the gig. Make any of the members uncomfortable or unhappy and you run the risk. There`s nothing else to it.

 

[JimmyM]

More what I'm saying though is that when people leap too early to thinking about hierarchy - and thinking in terms of their position - is when things can begin to fray... That's something that should only happen if there's already some serious clashes of group purpose. How can I illustrate? Well, agedhorse has kind of shown how some established leaders who could just be total dictators are willing to give people enough rope to hang themselves because they've made a judgment call on experience, personality, skills and mindset, and then some magic moments can happen.

I've seen situations where nobody is trying to pull rank and there's no undercurrents of hostility or intimidation or anything else that I can detect, and Things Just Get Done. It's like nobody thought about protecting their parking space or their perks, and just didn't think hard enough to flinch away from trust. Confidence begets confidence. I love it when I've been a part of those larger crew scenarios, on either side of the stage front. It's like everybody is one big well-oiled machine and all energy directed to ultimate goals.

All it takes is a little insecurity or envy or whatever to trigger lesser quality events into motion ; }

i love it when everything flows professionally, too. i have way more gigs like that than the opposite. usually, i come in, set up my stuff, tell the soundman i like the same sound in the house as what's in my amp, let him know i use a couple pedals, and keep my mouth shut after that because he inspires me with confidence that he's on my side. this thread is dedicated to the times it doesn't flow. in those situations, i pull rank when i can. sorry. don't like to do it but i will.

 

[Ric5]

Sometimes i tell the Sound guy my XLR jack is not working and we have to use a mike.

 

[greenboy]

Pulling rank at the right time and when you actually have rank is a valuable skill and commodity. Timing is everything ; }

I'll tell you this: just about any promoter's stage nightmare is preferable to walk into than shooting and editing a few mid-tier wedding videos* when the client is determined to make everybody as crazy as they themselves might be. Read mother or sometimes father of the bride. It's all cake after you walk away from the wedding cake ; }


* something you might contemplate only when there is a serious lull in other video jobs

 

[JimmyM]

Are you trying to imply he isn`t? Don`t fool yourself - band members will always be more important than the sound man at a gig. Band members are extended family. They may share the music business, but their relationships go much further than that and being able to replace someone isn`t as easy as just finding someone who can play the part... Sound men, even at the professional level, are much more easily replaceable. Make the band sound good and sound like them or lose the gig. Make any of the members uncomfortable or unhappy and you run the risk. There`s nothing else to it.

before anyone snorts at this comment, may i just add that even at my lowly position i have had a major hand in whether people are asked back on our gigs or not. sometimes we don't have a choice, but on a lot of our gigs we do, and when possible, we request people we really like and request a small handful not to come back. so i would advise everyone (including musicians) to not be difficult to anyone because you don't know who has the ear of the people driving the process at any point.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

before anyone snorts at this comment, may i just add that even at my lowly position i have had a major hand in whether people are asked back on our gigs or not. sometimes we don't have a choice, but on a lot of our gigs we do, and when possible, we request people we really like and request a small handful not to come back. so i would advise everyone (including musicians) to not be difficult to anyone because you don't know who has the ear of the people driving the process at any point.

This is pretty much what I was getting at

It does go both ways. People who are dedicated to running the house sound at a certain venue can definitely have a hand in who will be asked back to said venue - however, if a band is wanting to play somewhere and willing to pay the venue so that their soundman is used instead of the house guy then the house guy will more than likely be out of luck. Money talks louder than most people.

 

[greenboy]

A lot of times the house soundie is more than willing to get a vacation or to ride second chair. Sometimes it can be a lot of fun to collaborate or exchange ideas, other times it's a good way to get away from rote schedules.

 

[agedhorse]

You guys are generalizing how sound guys and sound companies get hired. You referring to a sound guy who tours with the band, or a sound company who provides the system and may also mix the show, or are you talking about a house system with a house sound guy?

In case you haven't experienced it, the house guy or in-house company almost always wins. In the big picture, he really doesn't care much about your feelings... you are just another bass player in another band. Your band will be gone tomorrow but there's a different one tomorrow. Applies to guitarists, keyboard players, drummers and especially banjo players.

The sound company who is hired by the promoter also has little to worry about. He will just deal with what's in front of him and if you are nasty enough with him, he will go into damage control mode and you just lost the game. Sure you can storm out and not play, but you will likely have lawyers from both sides ending your career, that is ifthe band leader doesn't kill you first.

The guy touring with the band generally has a little more to worry about, similar to the sidemen in the band actually.

 

[agedhorse]

It does go both ways. People who are dedicated to running the house sound at a certain venue can definitely have a hand in who will be asked back to said venue - however, if a band is wanting to play somewhere and willing to pay the venue so that their soundman is used instead of the house guy then the house guy will more than likely be out of luck. Money talks louder than most people.

Most definately so, and there are bands that a venue will not have back no matter what the price. Don't think the technical staff doesn't have a hand in this. Most real venues will have their head of departments (A1) there and overseeing everything anyway and enforcing house rules etc, even if it's not the house system. If the house system is used, it's operated (or overseen) by house guys and generally there's no discussion either.

Don't know what kind of venues you guys play at where the bands think they can dictate what a venue will or will not do. Try doing this at an IA venue and you will find that the work rules become strictly enforced. That's how bigger venues keep things in check... it's part of the give and take. Act is cooperative then the building and crew is more relaxed but if the band/promoter starts being a problem, the venue can become a bigger problem very easily. In fact, except at the bottom tier venues, this is seems to be pretty much the norm.

 

[agedhorse]

A lot of times the house soundie is more than willing to get a vacation or to ride second chair. Sometimes it can be a lot of fun to collaborate or exchange ideas, other times it's a good way to get away from rote schedules.

If it's his gig, he's going to get paid regardless of how hard he works that day. Doesn't bother me one bit how I get paid when I'm in this position.

 

[Micky-D]

Sorry, that's life. It's not antagonistic but no one comes out to hear the soundman. He is an essential and valuable member of the crew and should be respected as such, no argument. But his function is to serve the needs of the performers, period. That's the only reason he is there.

I am sorry to dig up an old post, but I feel I must comment.

As a FOH engineer, I disagree with that statement. Your monitors tech is there for you. Your LX crew is mostly there for you.

The FOH Engineer is there to take the signal from the act and send that signal to the crowd as best as possible with uniform coverage, tonal quality and mix.

You may like your bass tone booming massively at 100-150Hz. But if that is right on a node in the room, I will take it out. Love your treble +12dB at 10KHz? Well, that may just be too loud and unbalanced. I will pad that high end down.

Don't like it? Tough titties, remove yourself from the system.

I don't like lazy techs, and it is very true that it is not hard to patch in another line if the frame is avaliable. And if you do prefere your cabinet mic'd, then most mature engineers will try to do that if we can. I like a mic/DI combo myself.

You are dead on, no one comes to hear that engineer. But everyone does hear him, and he will be the first to blame if the sound is not well mixed and presented, as that is his/her task. The FOH tech works for the crowd, the venue, the crew and lastly, the act.

There are times when the tech is just lazy, or does not know better. But a mature engineer will handle your suggestion well, and as far as I am concerned if you believe a piece of equipment is part of 'your sound', then that piece of equipment goes in the signal chain.

If the tech says no, just lie and say you have effects in the effects loop. No choice for pre-EQ DI now.

Cheers,
Mick

 

[greenboy]

Even in a lot of local bar band scenarios the house guy has the ear of and the time in with the manager or owner. If he isn't already on the skids with the real boss, any band coming in is going to lose if they get pushy and insistent. I've let guys traveling with the band do stuff but not necessarily take over - unless I can tell they know their stuff and I feel like it.

I've been on the other side of that coin too, and that's generally the way the cards are stacked. I don't try to make the house engineer feel threatened or irate, just weigh the chemistry and mood, and make myself useful if that's all that's in the cards.

 

[JimmyM]

You guys are generalizing how sound guys and sound companies get hired. You referring to a sound guy who tours with the band, or a sound company who provides the system and may also mix the show, or are you talking about a house system with a house sound guy?

In case you haven't experienced it, the house guy or in-house company almost always wins. In the big picture, he really doesn't care much about your feelings... you are just another bass player in another band. Your band will be gone tomorrow but there's a different one tomorrow. Applies to guitarists, keyboard players, drummers and especially banjo players.

The sound company who is hired by the promoter also has little to worry about. He will just deal with what's in front of him and if you are nasty enough with him, he will go into damage control mode and you just lost the game. Sure you can storm out and not play, but you will likely have lawyers from both sides ending your career, that is ifthe band leader doesn't kill you first.

The guy touring with the band generally has a little more to worry about, similar to the sidemen in the band actually.

me personally, i'm referring to folks we have hired for our shows, and for sound companies we've hired out on the road for shows our drummer produces. we have definitely had a say in them. obviously we don't have as much say with a venue-provided sound crew or a house soundperson (respek 2 sistah amy). and obviously we're not going to bail on a show just because i'm having difficulty getting a mic on my cab.

and let me just state that pulling rank isn't for amateurs. if you're an opening act on a major tour, you better keep your mouth shut and be happy for anything nice you get. if you're one of 4 bands at the local bar, chances are the soundman is way more beloved than your band is.

so no, pulling rank there isn't recommended. what you do there is find an alternate way of getting your sound into the pa. fortunately, nowadays the alternatives for us tube lovers are finally legit alternatives. won't mic my cab? no problem...i have a pedal that sounds just like it. won't let me use a post-eq di? no problem, i have a preamp earlier in the chain. won't let me turn my gbe 1200/uber 810 rig up to 11 in a 50 seat bar? ok, that one you really shouldn't do, so don't be a dope about it

 

[JimmyM]

Don't know what kind of venues you guys play at where the bands think they can dictate what a venue will or will not do. Try doing this at an IA venue and you will find that the work rules become strictly enforced. That's how bigger venues keep things in check... it's part of the give and take. Act is cooperative then the building and crew is more relaxed but if the band/promoter starts being a problem, the venue can become a bigger problem very easily. In fact, except at the bottom tier venues, this is seems to be pretty much the norm.

thank god i play a lot of bottom tier venues!

 

[georgestrings]

this is where owning a wireless really is nice

Definitely, and IMO one of the largest benefits of having one - but as others have said, things change from soundcheck in an empty hall to a full house... I *usually* get out in front to insure things sound as I want them to, but later on have to trust the person at the board to make proper adjustments as the house fills up... Sometimes, I can get out and "mingle" during a show, and make it a part of "the act" - without being too obvious that I'm checking things out - but certainly not every night...

LOVE my wireless, though - I won't be without one...



- georgestrings