dear sound guy, thanks. (di box content)

[greenboy]

Doing a house sound gig can be educating at times. Occasionally you'll get a band manager who feels the need to earn his keep, demonstrating that by trying to lead you into marathon soundchecks and generally having a gazillion suggestions that it's easier to just follow through the motions and glom what you can out of that whole morass that'll actually matter: things like when solos are going to happen, etc.

Then when the real deal hits the wheels he's generally out of your hair and you can do what it actually takes to make it work during show time ; }

 

[fokof]

Definitely, and IMO one of the largest benefits of having one - but as others have said, things change from soundcheck in an empty hall to a full house...

Bingo ! A very important point.


On another thread subject , I think it's a bit of a contradiction to have a wireless for the purpose of good tone in FOH

While being in other thread subject , who should have the last word about what to use in a live situation , the soundman or the bassist ?

 

[JimmyM]

Bingo !
I think it's a bit of a contradiction to have a wireless for the purpose of good tone in FOH, but that's another thread subject

While being in other thread subject , who should have the last word about what to use in a live situation , the soundman or the bassist ?

bassist. if a soundman can't deal with a mic during a show as opposed to the soundcheck, they should get out of the business.

 

[fokof]

if a soundman can't deal with a mic during a show as opposed to the soundcheck, they should get out of the business.

???????????

 

[LeeP]

I've read al 23 pages of this thread. Fascinating stuff. I guess I'm lucky, I play in a local cover band, small venues - very small time. But we have always used our own sound system with our own sound guy(s). Our crew is considered a part of the band, they're at every rehearsal, help with setup and tear down and get the same pay at the end of the night as the onstage musicians. I trust our soundguy to make the band (and therefore me) sound good out front, where it counts. He's willing to work with me on tone, effects and such and I'm willing to work with him to adjust as necessary to keep it sounding good to the audience.

That's not to say we haven't had some challenges and disagreements. Some rooms just plain suck - especially for bass. Trying to separate and balance me, the drums, the keys and a guitar player who likes the low strings is tough and it doesn't always work out well, especially when we can't get a full soundcheck before we start (personnel issues - another thread!)

I really like the approach Agedhorse has. I wish more sound people had that attitude!

Thanks to Jimmy, Marcus, devoge and everybody - I've learned a LOT!

 

[MrTAteMyBalls]

good thread. lots of differing opinions here. i'm about to start gigging in a band as a bassist for the first time, so this is education for me. Been playing guitar for 15 years. EVERY gig I have played with house sound the guitar gets an sm57(or equivalent dynamic mic) and the bass gets a DI....i havent had any soundman demand a pre eq di into the house, but i have also never had one mic a bass cab. I would agree with many here that your drunken audience cant tell the difference. I used to not care, but now that I am a bassist I will be experimenting with these techniques when we play out. Speaker DI with a speaker sim like a countryman 85 seems like a solid option for my tube head.

The only trend i can notice at these clubs is that they are constantly pushing the decibals WAY too high. I've heard the mains distorting in clubs more times than I can count due to pushing the system too hard. That doesnt sound too good. I've also heard massive amounts of crushing kick drum, with some vocals and almost no guitars or bass in the mix. that also sounds poor, and is quite a disappointment when you go see a band that you love.

Anyways....tell your guitarist he has to DI and see what he has to say about it....lol.

 

[agedhorse]

Speaker DI with a speaker sim like a countryman 85 seems like a solid option for my tube head.

Except that the 85 does not have speaker simulation filter circuitry, so if that's what you are hoping for, you might wantto find the appropriate tool. Also, what kind of simulation circuit would you deem "ideal"?

Anyways....tell your guitarist he has to DI and see what he has to say about it....lol.

If a DI was the best choice for the guitarist to get his tone, I would most certainly recommend it. If he refuses, then just like the bass player who refuses a DI, my ability to achive the tone he is shooting for on stage may be compromised in the house. Yes, I have used a (true) speaker sumulator DI on guitar (either modeling of DI-filter) maybe 5% ot the time this year and usually it was at the request of the player who knew very well what he was trying to achieve and it made the sound better in the context of the entire mix. Usually, it was on one amp rig, used for specific parts in the show. Of course, these were experienced pros and were very open to the many possible ways of getting to the end result.

I might also use a 57, 409, 609, 421, or any number of mics on the guitar or bass cabinet IF that's what I thought would get me to where I needed to be in the mix.

The message I am trying to get across is that if you take away the tools of the sound guy to do his job, your tone WILL be compromised even if yo don't believe so. How would you like the sound guy to tell you what bass you should use to get your tone on stage? Your stage sound is yours, the house sound is his, and most good guys will try to get your stage sound translated to the house PA but need to be allowed to use the tools that enable them to do this without being micro-managed.

 

[JimmyM]

good thread. lots of differing opinions here. i'm about to start gigging in a band as a bassist for the first time, so this is education for me. Been playing guitar for 15 years. EVERY gig I have played with house sound the guitar gets an sm57(or equivalent dynamic mic) and the bass gets a DI....i havent had any soundman demand a pre eq di into the house, but i have also never had one mic a bass cab. I would agree with many here that your drunken audience cant tell the difference. I used to not care, but now that I am a bassist I will be experimenting with these techniques when we play out. Speaker DI with a speaker sim like a countryman 85 seems like a solid option for my tube head.

the countryman doesn't have a speaker sim, though. if you use it on a tube amp, you'll get full range, including tweeter freqs that you may not want.

and though the audience may not be able to tell the difference, then that's all the more reason to give me what i want

 

[georgestrings]

I think it's a bit of a contradiction to have a wireless for the purpose of good tone in FOH, but that's another thread subject

Yeah, we're going to disagree on that one, because to *my* ears, the XDR-95 sounds as good as any cable - so, there's no negative to FOH sound by using one...



- georgestrings

 

[greenboy]

most good guys will try to get your stage sound translated to the house PA but need to be allowed to use the tools that enable them to do this without being micro-managed.

After a bout of micromanagement there's more than a few guys I'd like to tell, "Your articulation sucks. And now that you've found the root for most of the chords in the songs you play, how 'bout coming up with some actual BASS LINES?"

And then use the talkback and tell them what notes to play ; }

 

[JimmyM]

If a DI was the best choice for the guitarist to get his tone, I would most certainly recommend it. If he refuses, then just like the bass player who refuses a DI, my ability to achive the tone he is shooting for on stage may be compromised in the house. Yes, I have used a (true) speaker sumulator DI on guitar (either modeling of DI-filter) maybe 5% ot the time this year and usually it was at the request of the player who knew very well what he was trying to achieve and it made the sound better in the context of the entire mix. Usually, it was on one amp rig, used for specific parts in the show. Of course, these were experienced pros and were very open to the many possible ways of getting to the end result.

I might also use a 57, 409, 609, 421, or any number of mics on the guitar or bass cabinet IF that's what I thought would get me to where I needed to be in the mix.

The message I am trying to get across is that if you take away the tools of the sound guy to do his job, your tone WILL be compromised even if yo don't believe so. How would you like the sound guy to tell you what bass you should use to get your tone on stage? Your stage sound is yours, the house sound is his, and most good guys will try to get your stage sound translated to the house PA but need to be allowed to use the tools that enable them to do this without being micro-managed.

i have never turned down a soundman who wanted a di along with my mic on my rig in my life. however, i try to make it very clear to them that i don't like any frequencies that don't come out of my amp. i don't mind extra low end if it's needed, but i hate that full-frequency bright bass tone. most soundmen i work with regularly get it, and they tell me they love my tone out of the mic and never ask for a di.

but what invariably happens if those who don't get what i'm looking for run a di and a mic on me? they turn off the mic and run the bass amp tone any way they see fit, even if it goes directly against my wishes. i have busted several soundmen doing this to me. i'll tap on my mic during a show and discover it's completely off. then i step out into the crowd and discover they have me sounding like marcus miller, whom i respect a lot but i have no desire to have his tone.

there is absolutely no reason any soundman needs to have access to upper freqs i don't like. lower freqs...ok, you may have a case for that. but i am not taking away any of their tools imho. i am just preventing them from ruining the sound that I work so hard to get. i don't want slappy mcslapperstein tone, i want cliff williams tone. so now that i've found out that i will get hoodwinked in certain situations, i have decided that my vt or british pedal is going to be an always-on thing in strange situations, set up to eliminate any chance of sounding like marcus miller in the house.

ever since i started playing, the mantra i've heard is "you have to trust the soundman." well what if i've had too many experiences that prove i can't trust him, especially if it's someone i never worked with before who thinks my tone sounds like poo because there's not enough 12k? sorry andy, ain't gonna happen anymore. YOU i'd trust...a handful of other soundmen i would trust too. everyone else gets the vt

 

[JimmyM]

Yeah, we're going to disagree on that one, because to *my* ears, the XDR-95 sounds as good as any cable - so, there's no negative to FOH sound by using one...

totally agreed. besides, i do upright bass stunts and run into the crowd at certain points in the show. how can i do that with a cable?

 

[Marcus Willett]

i hate that full-frequency bright bass tone. most soundmen i work with regularly get it...i step out into the crowd and discover they have me sounding like marcus miller, whom i respect a lot but i have no desire to have his tone.

Exactly, and a point I have tried to make again and again to no avail. The soundman, regardless of qualifications is (being human) if given the chance to CREATE my tone going to sculpt it the way he thinks it should be.I hate that tone as well but most soundmen love it. A good soundman will come up and listen to my rig and do his best to give me that tone, but the vast majority will simply want a straight full-range "modern" tone (which I LOATHE with a passion) and put that out there because that's how they think bass is SUPPOSED to sound.

This is the root of my opposition to the whole approach of most soundmen who just want the typical bass-to-DI setup. 90% of the time they have no interest in getting MY tone, they want THEIR tone.

You don't need that clickity-clack to cut in a mix, that's a bogus myth. My old P with 10 year old flats has no high end at all and sounds great in a mix even with the tone control fully back. My Wendler is one of the darkest basses I've ever played and routinely gets compliments on its' tone. The MIDS are what make it work and that's exactly why I have my rig, to sculpt my sound especially in the mids.

 

[JansenW]

the countryman doesn't have a speaker sim, though. if you use it on a tube amp, you'll get full range, including tweeter freqs that you may not want.

and though the audience may not be able to tell the difference, then that's all the more reason to give me what i want

Radial has a Guitar Amp Direct Box. The Radial Phaser time-aligns the two signals.

 

[JimmyM]

the phazer would be a nice tool to have. i never worry about it, though. the guy at the board usually has something like that to fix all that stuff.

 

[agedhorse]

You don't need that clickity-clack to cut in a mix, that's a bogus myth. My old P with 10 year old flats has no high end at all and sounds great in a mix even with the tone control fully back. My Wendler is one of the darkest basses I've ever played and routinely gets compliments on its' tone. The MIDS are what make it work and that's exactly why I have my rig, to sculpt my sound especially in the mids.

Who said a direct sound has to be clickity clack and has to cut?

The bass should compliment the mix, it doesn't sit alone and sometimes I have the band leader sit at FOH during sound check and listen. I use that opportunity to have them explain the conceptual aspects of the music and how best to achieve the feel he wishes to convey. I do this as often as possible for international and world music that I may be unfamilar with. Sometimes the band leader will disagree with what the INDIVIDUAL musicians prefer but their job as band leader is to deliver their product as a band mix and not as individuals. I can't tell you guys the number of times a guitarist wants (or demands) more of him in the mix, over the top of everybody else. Somebody has to look after the overall mix because every member in the band is sure to mix and balance each part out differently. I have seen band leaders or music directors put players in their place for arguing after the decision has been made. Cab Calloway really drove the point home with me when one of the players in a pickup band insisted on playing his part differently than the charts. The guy had the balls to argue with Cab and tell him that he liked his way better. Cab stopped the rehersal and told the guy that when he achieved to position that Cab had in his career, he could then lead a band and do whatever the hell he wanted to do, but the guy was playing Cab's music, in Cab's band, at Cab's show and would do it the way Cab wrote and arranged it (like 50-60 years ago). The guy stomped off and they found another player (it was a university gig and the Jazz band had plenty of players to choose from). Cab shook his head in disgust. I learned more working about arrangements and blending and appropriate mixing with acts like this than with almost any other gigs. Too bad most of these real musician-entertainers have passed on. They has alot to teach us, and I was all ears.

 

[JimmyM]

Who said a direct sound has to be clickity clack and has to cut?

about 10% of the various soundmen i work with our most regular soundman hates my tone without the clicky clacky. but he's big into fusion so he would. if i let him do what he wanted, we'd sound like RTF playing "Shout" and he wouldn't have a second thought about it. but he's a brilliant guy who gets it and puts his own biases aside for our own, although i did bust him scooping me out of the mix a month ago i constantly ask him for opinions on my tone now because he gets how we work.

that's all we want from any soundman...just get how we work and work within those confines. give us suggestions and advice, sure, but don't just flat out tell us we can't have what we want and demand we do things in a way that's totally against what we're trying to achieve.

btw, that idiot with cab you were talking about is at the same end of the spectrum as these rogue soundmen who won't mix us the way we want as far as i'm concerned.

 

[TheBassPreacher]

All this reminds me of the time I did a Battle of the Bands, and one of the comments on our sheet (it lost us points too) was that the bass sound was too bright and needed to be more mellow... that made me mad seeing as I had 0 control over my sound since the sound guy put me straight direct. Unfortunately it seemed the judge didn't have enough sense to realize that. Oh well, it's all the things you deal with as a musician.

 

[devoge]

Are you trying to imply he isn`t? Don`t fool yourself - band members will always be more important than the sound man at a gig. Band members are extended family. They may share the music business, but their relationships go much further than that and being able to replace someone isn`t as easy as just finding someone who can play the part... Sound men, even at the professional level, are much more easily replaceable. Make the band sound good and sound like them or lose the gig. Make any of the members uncomfortable or unhappy and you run the risk. There`s nothing else to it.

The discussion is not about who's more important

 

[Marcus Willett]

Who said a direct sound has to be clickity clack and has to cut?

Unfortunately the majority of sound people I end up running into.