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dear sound guy, thanks. (di box content)

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Just had a perhaps Jauqo-esque type question. Putting aside any DI-vs-mic type issues and technical ramifications aside...just as a matter of principle; do you think that any musician is equally free to embark upon his/her journey to find his/her "voice", wherever that may lead?

Sure. But the way I think of it, it's like people are free to pursue a life of altruism or a life of crime. Eventually there's a reckoning where your choices are meshed up against the choices of others. Harmonious choices will get along, dissonant choices will cause problems. Being a tone fanatic is fine right up to the point that it harms the music or the entertainment (depending on whether you're in the studio or the stage). After that, your ability to compromise and work well with others becomes much more important than your tone.

Of course, my personal take is wrapped up right there under my name. "DI and be there". It comes from the photography world. There are a few pro photographers and a whole lot of wannabe photographers who obsess over settings. Then there are photojournalists who make their living taking pictures of events. They're always working on a very tight news deadline and don't have time for anything extraneous. Their advice for how to set your camera is "f/8 and be there". For those that don't know, f/8 is just a generic all-purpose setting for one of the things on the camera you can change. The advice means "just set something generic--the important thing is to be there to capture the news happening".

I approach my bass playing the same way. Right now I'm going through a phase where I'm collecting gear and tweaking and futzing with my tone trying to get something I really really like. But the fact is, if my band is doing a festival gig where we're not running our own sound, I'll gladly plug into a DI if that's what the sound guy wants, because performing my best is FAR more important to me than getting "my" tone.
 
the way I think of it, it's like people are free to pursue a life of altruism or a life of crime.
TB rules forbid me from being overtly rude, so... do you genuinely expect me to take anything you say seriously after comparing an artistic pursuit of ones' own "voice" in this manner?

If someone had asked "as a matter of principle" if gay persons are entitled to the same rights as heterosexuals and I had responded with "Sure. But the way I think of it, it's like people are free to pursue a life of altruism or a life of crime."....do you think I would have any credibility to speak any more about the subject?
 
TB rules forbid me from being overtly rude, so... do you genuinely expect me to take anything you say seriously after comparing an artistic pursuit of ones' own "voice" in this manner?
Well sure. There are some bass tones out there that are downright criminal. :D

Seriously though, I didn't mean to be offensive, I was thinking more from the perspective of society but didn't really make that clear. When you think of how a person relates to society, there are people who actively work to make the lives of others better, and people who are only out for themselves with no thought of their impact on others. That's what I meant by altruists and criminals. Now those are both extremes--most of us live in the middle, helping people out when we can but running a few stop signs or fudging our taxes a bit when we can get away with it.

In a band situation the same thing applies. You can bend over backwards to make your tone a perfect fit for your band on one extreme, or you can steal all kinds of frequency spectrum to get your tone and not care what it does to the band, sound guys, or your audience. Again, most of us live somewhere in between.
 
You can bend over backwards to make your tone a perfect fit for your band on one extreme, or you can steal all kinds of frequency spectrum to get your tone and not care what it does to the band, sound guys, or your audience. Again, most of us live somewhere in between.

I don't necessarily disagree, but you haven't actually answered the question.

Let's try it this way: Is ANY musician free to embark upon his/her journey to find his/her "voice", wherever that may lead?

If no, why not? And further, who has the authority to say this person does not? And from where does this authority derive?

If yes, are there limitations on who may pursue this path? And who is in a position to decide this?
 
If one of the consequences would be the perpetual denial of the results of that search, then is there any reason for the search?

I think that's up to the individual. Certainly there are some intrinsic benefits to the pursuit of tone. Why else would so many of us have carefully-crafted rigs that sometimes never leave the house? Extrinsic benefits would be the rewards of fitting in well in a band. If you find the intrinsic value more rewarding, then you'd probably keep searching for a perfect tone even if you couldn't get in a band. If you find the extrinsic value more rewarding, your search will head in a different direction.

Keep in mind also that "blending" is a value sought by some bassists. Just look at some of the comments about Precision basses, how they seem to magically sit well in a mix. That "sitting well" is the tone in some players' heads that they search for, and for many of them the search ends with a Precision bass.
 
Oh, and just to put my money where my mouth is, I just got (almost) done setting up my new rig. It looks like this:

Wireless -> Pitch Black tuner -> Radial Pro DI -> Eden Navigator preamp -> Markbass CMD-102P (effects loop in) + Standard 151R extension cab.

In the sidechain loop of the Navigator I've got a Line6 M9.

I'm on the TB group buy list to get one of the SansAmp VT Bass Deluxe pedals also. I'm not sure if that will sit in front of the Navigator or in the sidechain, I'll have to experiment and see.

This rig gives me a fully wet DI on the back of the Markbass combo, but I've also provided a fully dry quality DI for the benefit of the sound guy. In an ideal world I'd send him both and let him mix them as he sees fit, but if I get a cranky sound guy or we're playing a festival and have limited time to set up, I'll just plug into my Radial DI and be content that a quality bass and a quality DI are good enough to get the gig done.
 
It seems we've got a missing term masking a continuum here.

If one of the consequences would be the perpetual denial of [all] the results of that search, then is there any reason for the search?
No.

If one of the consequences would be the perpetual denial of [most of] the results of that search, then is there any reason for the search?
Probably.

If one of the consequences would be the perpetual denial of [some few of] the results of that search, then is there any reason for the search?
Very likely.
 
Indeed. You could argue that artists like Claypool, Flea, and that guy from Muse are all relentless in their pursuit of tone, yet the tones they achieve are pleasing to many.

That's kind of my point. If I (for example) get a GK rig because I want that GK sound; that is completely defeated when a soundman says to me "Just plug into this DI". It's then an illusion and it's patronizing. It's an illusion because no one else will hear your voice as you as an artist intended and worked for. It's patronizing because it in essence is saying that you can go ahead and have your little fantasy world onstage where you think you have your tone, but I know better and will make it sound they way it should.

The blend issue is a red herring. Guitarists OFTEN have a tone that creates blending problems for soundmen and the band. They are never expected or asked to sacrifice what they consider to be an essential component of their voice. Worst case scenario, maybe they are asked to go direct, but still will all the FX and electronic tone shaping they want.

Even such a proponent as fokof agrees "In cases where the tone comes from the amp , like a rock band with a SVT , or old genuine stuff , a mike is de rigueur". Even the most vocal proponents of "DI only is best" usually agree with such a statement.

OK, let's follow this logic. Where is the line drawn? OK, a guy with a grindy SVT tone may get the mic...who else? How much coloration I am allowed to have from my rig before I'm denied that consideration?

Eden, GK, Thunderfunk, Aguilar...? Where is that line drawn? And who decides? The soundman? OK, why?

If the argument is that the soundman should be the ultimate authority of what you tone is in the house...the thinking being that he is in the best position to make that call, OK. If that is true should not his authority extend to all matters affecting my tone?

If he is in the position to tell me that no matter what I may want my tone to be, he makes the call then should not he also be able to tell me what kind of pickups I use? Those can have a HUGE impact on tone. How about strings? Also a huge impact. Playing technique, fingers, pick. What if I like to roll my tone control fully counterclockwise to get my voice, but that makes it muddy in the house...is his authority such that he can tell me I can't do that, even if it's "better for the mix"?

Of course you're going to say that's silly and I agree but the question is precisely why is that silly?

Why is the soundmans authority absolute once the flow of electrons passes the threshold of a 1/4" jack, but zero before that? Bill Dickens once had a bass with FX built into the instrument...it was part of his voice (at that time). Is that OK, or does the same hardware in an external casing somehow negate that right?

I could just as easily send a signal flow flow the post DI on my amp. "That sound may not work in the house!" Sure, it might present some difficulties; I'm not denying that. But so could many other things before that magic threshold of the output jack. I could do things with a passive bass and playing techniques that could present FAR bigger problems for the mix that simply using a post DI (especially with minimal to no EQ, which is how I generally go), yet it would be absurd to suggest he's allowed to tell me I can't do that. Why is this then? If it's not about the tone in the mix (if it is, the soundman's authority should be absolute over all parameters) then...

I can respect just about any position that is logically consistent with itself. This argument is not, I submit. My contention is that saying that the signal flow must be interrupted at the 1/4" jack is completely arbitrary (and easy) and if you step back and look at the situation it cannot be supported logically, only historically.
 
How about this guys...

My group used to play with a fantastic sound man behind us... he had a small modular Meyer Sound system and got us all DI'ed up and miced... well, costs got too high so we moved to a new sound guy for now.

So this is how the last gig went... I show up, and it used to be that either they'd take the DI right out of my EA Amp or Cube into the board, or they'd hand me a JDI and say "Plug into this!"... What does the new guy do? He pulls out an old beat-up RAPCO DI with a piece of masking tape on it on the tape it said "For BASS ONLY!"

It turned out the DI was so fried it was essentially useless for anything above 900Hz... He had another DI marked "Keyboard Only" which was the exact opposite!

Talk about a horrible night! The sound guy even had the nerve to ask me if I put in a fresh battery because he could hear the signal ducking ...

After the gig I RAN out and got a JDI... Unfortunately we're using him again, so this time we're using MY JDI... I'm not going near those CRAPcos again...
 
He pulls out an old beat-up RAPCO DI with a piece of masking tape on it on the tape it said "For BASS ONLY!"
Yeah, had that happen to me recently at a big place that has a very expensive PA in a 2000 seat theater. He hands me a crappy Whirlwind DI as we were just the opening act. I ask him if I can use my Radial J48 instead, and he says "Sure man, if you want. They're all the same." These guys were supposedly professionals, but some of them don't do their homework.

For the record, the headliner that played after us had a bass player going into an SVT 2 Pro and a fridge. His tone sounded like complete crap. We both played jazz basses, and my Lakland DJ into the Radial J48 totally destroyed all the stuff he went through trying to get his tone into the FOH.

IMO, mic'ing a bass cab only works when you have a regular sound guy who is as familiar with your gear and the tone you want as you are, or if you have a truly professional engineer who has enough time to help you get where you are going. Just showing up and having a guy put a mic on your rig is going to fail more times than not. Sound engineers love to take a bass DI for a reason.
 
Jason, i can't tell you the degree that i completely disagree with that assessment. if i bring in an svt or b-15 and a mic and the soundman tells me he can't make it sound good, then either he will tell me exactly why he can't make it sound good or be forever thought of by me as incompetent.

however, after a week on a cruise ship with either a 400rb or ha3500 into a broken gk 410 (tried to get another cab...it was broken, too), i have to say i was absolutely delighted with my sound. why? because i used my sansamp british pedal as an always-on clean pedal, which totally defeated any attempt by the soundman to screw up my tone. and since i was really close to the pa cabs, i just had to step slightly offstage to check how my sound was, and if i thought it was off, -i- adjusted it, not him. therefore, my sound was always right on, and as a result, i think i will care way less in the future about getting a mic...

however, that choice has always been and will continue to be made by me on gigs where i have control over it, which is 99% of them. and to be honest, the fact that so many of you seem completely willing to subject yourself to the will of others out of convenience makes me a little sad.
 
the fact that so many of you seem completely willing to subject yourself to the will of others out of convenience makes me a little sad.
I've said it before: Bass players are the red-headed step children of the musicians' world. I've never seen another instrumentalist that is expected to yield and sacrifice as much as bassists are.
 
Jason, i can't tell you the degree that i completely disagree with that assessment. if i bring in an svt or b-15 and a mic and the soundman tells me he can't make it sound good, then either he will tell me exactly why he can't make it sound good or be forever thought of by me as incompetent.

however, after a week on a cruise ship with either a 400rb or ha3500 into a broken gk 410 (tried to get another cab...it was broken, too), i have to say i was absolutely delighted with my sound. why? because i used my sansamp british pedal as an always-on clean pedal, which totally defeated any attempt by the soundman to screw up my tone. and since i was really close to the pa cabs, i just had to step slightly offstage to check how my sound was, and if i thought it was off, -i- adjusted it, not him. therefore, my sound was always right on, and as a result, i think i will care way less in the future about getting a mic...

however, that choice has always been and will continue to be made by me on gigs where i have control over it, which is 99% of them. and to be honest, the fact that so many of you seem completely willing to subject yourself to the will of others out of convenience makes me a little sad.

The short answer Jimmy as to why he can't make it sound good is because it's AMPEG. :hiding::D
 
I'm both. Bass player, and sound man (IATSE, Tour) , I go to DI nine times out of ten, but I do try to get it post amp/eq/fx send or use a mic if it's a good cab, amp whatever. HOWEVER, after cutting my teeth in small clubs, and you have 4 bands and 10 minutes in between and the bands have are rushing around, and running around, I will grab DI right out of the bass for time, and that way I know Im getting the cleanest signal possible to FOH.

And let's be honest with ourselves here, we spend all the money and hours hunting down gear to please ourselves so when we play we get a smile on our face. In most of the clubs the bass TONE is barely audible, especially with guitars, vocals, drums, and people eating up the frequencies. It's all about getting the rumble so people can feel it. IMHO.

I do schlep a big rig to shows because I like the way it sounds on stage. No one in the crowd really cares, unless youre playing for a bunch of musicians and theyre going to find something wrong with what youre playing anyway. Plus all of your "tone" should be coming out of your fingers so who cares, have fun.
 
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