dear sound guy, thanks. (di box content)

[JimmyM]

You're gonna ask = who are to decide bla bla bla.....

My references.

When I'm hired to mix a band , I'm hired because they know how i "sound" , how I work.
The work include decision making.
Decision making includes the choice of equipement.
The choice of equipement is done on experience :45 years of listening to modern recordings , and 25 years of professional experience.

yeah, well i have 32 years of pro experience, so i win

here's how it works...you have as much decision making power as the person who's paying you allows you. the reason i get bowzer willing to fly me across the world when he could easily bring sheet music and get pickup musicians is not because i'm such a great bassist with ungodly fantastic tone. i'd say a good 1/4 of the pro players on here smoke me at both. the reason i get that is because i deliver not only what he wants, but what any act he hires for us to back up wants.

however, if i do something that bowzer doesn't like, i will hear about it, and i can either do what he wants or not work with him anymore. my decision making process is totally subject to what bowzer wants. so when you tell me they hire you for your decision making prowess, that's great, but it's a false illusion. you are only allowed to make decisions to the level that the person hiring you or the act who's drawing the people to the show allows you. if you have someone hire you who allows you to work autonomously and you don't have to answer to anyone but him/her, rock. otherwise, you're kidding yourself.

 

[JimmyM]

my main question about this topic is as follows:

I've played and mic'd guitar cabs for 15 years as a guitarist. I've run guitars direct when forced and found that clean it is not so bad but add an overdrive and you just have a fizzy mess. It is the guitar CABINET speaker that smoothes things out(not to mention a tube power section) and makes it sound like a full bodied roar. Hence micing the cab. I'm playing some live bass now and I'm using overdrive/fuzz for some songs. From my prior experience I would think that the bass CABINET speaker would do the same thing that the guitar drivers were doing and make it sound strong instead of fuzzy. How do you guys who use OD/fuzz deal with this in a live situation. I've plugged my bass in direct to my recording rig and clean it sounds good, but hit the big muff and it sounds pretty crap....I would hate to think that would be the sound that the PA would be getting. however, the big muff through my mese d-180 and GK cab sounds killer. Whats the solution besides micing the cab????

cutting frequencies above 4 or 5k, getting a distortion pedal with a 4 or 5k cutoff like the vt, or using some sort of cabinet simulator.

 

[fokof]

90% of the live shows I hear (and I hear a lot) the bass sounds like shi!t to me

I think you're on something here.
Doesn't that makes you asks questions ?

Just because you like the way it sounds doesn't mean it's "right", you just think so because that's how you like it. There is no "right" when it comes to tone, ever. Mass consensus doesn't change this either.

Exactly my point too. Glad we agree.

Then explain why you are not allowed to determine other "pre-1/4 out" factors that would have as big if not moreso an impact on the sound you get from me.

You're asking me why I can't tell the bass player what bass to use ?
Because he can't tell me what equipement to use.
( here we go with the egg/chicken again! )

I don't want a strong low B fundamental. I've got plenty of low end from my rig. If the soundman needs more, that's what his EQ is for.

You think that an EQ can create some frequencies ?

The soundmans' idea of a "good" bass tone is just that: his idea. With no other instrument is this level of authority to overwrite an artists voice practiced, only bass.

No instrument is gonna be translated as it really sounds in a PA.
Piano , drums , sax , a bass amp , name 'em all.
A PA is a spatially limited tool to replicate complex acoutics crated in 360°.No instrument is gonna sound alike. That's an Utopia to think so.
Like other mentioned (MrTAteMyBalls), your amp is NEVER gonna sound the same in a PA as what it sounds 3 feet in front of you.
So even with the best intention in the world , no soundman can.
With that in mind , a soundman has to "create" a mix with the tools in hand.

The best solution for any of you who doesn't like the soundman's job , is to do the sound yourself.

 

[Marcus Willett]

I think you're on something here.
Doesn't that makes you asks questions ?

It tells me most people have (IMO) a crappy idea of what a "good" bass tone is.

You think that an EQ can create some frequencies ?

I can emphasize what's there yes. I never said there isn't ANY low end and the soundman would have to "create" it. You think that if he boosts 15dB at 31Hz and I don't have much information there it's not going to make any difference?

your amp is NEVER gonna sound the same in a PA as what it sounds 3 feet in front of you

And again, this is true of every amp, every sound, every source. The sound of everything changes relative to your position to it. And once again, with everything else, somehow a way to make it work (even if it's difficult and time consuming) is always found, unless you're a bass player.

 

[Marcus Willett]

I You're asking me why I can't tell the bass player what bass to use ?
Because he can't tell me what equipement to use.

So if you can't tell me what equipment to use, you have no problem as long as you get a signal from me right? If you hand me a DI you're telling me what equipment to use. If I hand you an XLR cable with a post DI send from my amp, I'm not telling you to use anything; I'm giving you a signal, which is the full extent of my obligation, professionally or ethically.

 

[frankie5string]

So if you can't tell me what equipment to use, you have no problem as long as you get a signal from me right? If you hand me a DI you're telling me what equipment to use. If I hand you an XLR cable with a post DI send from my amp, I'm not telling you to use anything; I'm giving you a signal, which is the full extent of my obligation, professionally or ethically.

The only time this hasn't worked for me... actually times, was when the FOH engineer refused to take the DI from an amp which was running off the mains... In some venues, using the built-in DI on an amp isn't all that great of a way to get the sound back to the board... even if you lift the ground, when the DI is powered on the same rail as the power amp, what are you really lifting? ;-)

 

[JimmyM]

The best solution for any of you who doesn't like the soundman's job , is to do the sound yourself.

no, the best solution is to fire that soundman and hire a soundman who will give you what you want. you're a soundman, not the pope. you are not infallible, and if you can't take occasional critiques or put up with demands from those who are paying your salary, or see past this ridiculous notion that you should be allowed to make all the decisions about everything past the instrument, you're in the wrong business. of course you don't have any input on what bass or amp i play...i as the bassist don't work for you. but you as the soundman work for my band on my gigs.

see, i hate to pull rank, but you forced me into it

 

[JimmyM]

And again, this is true of every amp, every sound, every source. The sound of everything changes relative to your position to it. And once again, with everything else, somehow a way to make it work (even if it's difficult and time consuming) is always found, unless you're a bass player.

yeah, we're douchebags who aren't smart enough to make those decisions, apparently.

btw, the next person that says "even if you mic an amp it doesn't sound the same" is going to get an email flood of naked pictures of mo'nique and rosie o'donnell. Here is a news flash...i don't care if it does or doesn't. it's the sound i like, i like it a million times better than a straight di, i have zero problem getting it to translate in the house and sound a lot like my amp, and i really don't care if it isn't a 100% sonically identical copy. so stop with the nonsense.

 

[fokof]

you are only allowed to make decisions to the level that the person hiring you or the act who's drawing the people to the show allows you. if you have someone hire you who allows you to work autonomously and you don't have to answer to anyone but him/her, rock. otherwise, you're kidding yourself.

+1000
Agree totally.

 

[JimmyM]

The only time this hasn't worked for me... actually times, was when the FOH engineer refused to take the DI from an amp which was running off the mains... In some venues, using the built-in DI on an amp isn't all that great of a way to get the sound back to the board... even if you lift the ground, when the DI is powered on the same rail as the power amp, what are you really lifting? ;-)

hey frankie, no offense, but if you have some input, i'd love to hear it, but all i'm getting out of your comments so far is "i do it this way and that should be good enough for everyone."

 

[fokof]

It tells me most people have (IMO) a crappy idea of what a "good" bass tone is.

Funny , you just mentioned that "There is no "right" when it comes to tone, ever"

I can emphasize what's there yes. I never said there isn't ANY low end and the soundman would have to "create" it. You think that if he boosts 15dB at 31Hz and I don't have much information there it's not going to make any difference?

I don't know what amp you use but , if you have to boost 30hz to 15db to have a good fundamental , you're looking for trouble.
Since you're soundman too , you know what I mean

And again, this is true of every amp, every sound, every source. The sound of everything changes relative to your position to it.

Exactly what I said. Please read again reply #523.
Glad agree some more.

 

[fokof]

If I hand you an XLR cable with a post DI send from my amp, I'm not telling you to use anything; I'm giving you a signal, which is the full extent of my obligation, professionally or ethically.

If you hand me an post EQ XLR , YOU are telling me what to do.
The EQ you are applying to your amp is probably not the one needed for the PA , they ar not the same equipement.
There are advantages and dis-advantages from either DI , mic , pre\post out.
From there it's all a question of communication and good will.
Personaly , I NEVER go mike only. I will always use a DI in conjonction of a mike.

 

[modulusman]

No Jimmy,just bass players who are not smart enough to run sound.

 

[fokof]

, i have zero problem getting it to translate in the house and sound a lot like my amp, and i really don't care if it isn't a 100% sonically identical copy.

Lucky you.

My problem is that I'm very picky.
It's part of the job.

 

[JimmyM]

No Jimmy,just bass players who are not smart enough to run sound.

i can twiddle knobs until a band sounds mixed just as well as anyone. want to impress me? run monitors for one of bowzer's multi-act shows. now that's a job

 

[frankie5string]

hey frankie, no offense, but if you have some input, i'd love to hear it, but all i'm getting out of your comments so far is "i do it this way and that should be good enough for everyone."

I didn't say it was THE way to go... but a lot of sound engineers tend to prefer DIs that aren't part of the Bass amp's circuitry. It kinda defeats the purpose of the isolation transformer if it's circuitry is being powered by your mains - whereas the board and power amps may be powered by the opposite phase...

Ground loops and all...

You guys are fairly high and mighty on all this... Often I'm below the sound guy on the totem pole... So, anything I can bring to make his life easier gets me three things: 1) No complaints to the music director which in turn gets me more call backs, and 2) I think bass players having their own DI should be reasonable to avoid the catastrophe I described earlier on. And finally 3) Kudos from the sound man, which gets back to the music director, which gets me a call back or another gig.

I'm not saying everyone should do this, but for under $200, a good passive DI is pretty cheap insurance... right?

I dunno, I listen to Paul Denman playing for Sade, and he goes direct into the board - and he sounds exactly like the record, which happens to sound exactly like his old Trace rig...

That aside, what's so radically different about a Thunderfunk amp and Eden cab that can not be had through mains and EQ? That's a pretty modern and Hifi rig is it not? The last one I heard certainly wasn't what I consider a "tone applier". So what kind of dial tweaking is Marcus doing to get such a proprietary tone?

 

[Marcus Willett]

If you hand me an post EQ XLR , YOU are telling me what to do.

You mean like a guitar player sending you a signal from a mic in front of his amp? That kinda telling you? I could see why that kinda dictatorial kind of action should be completely unacceptable behavior.

I mean, if you're a bass player that is. Everything else, well....

The EQ you are applying to your amp is probably not the one needed for the PA , they ar not the same equipement.

Again, true of everything else amplified and again, it's only the bass player who has to bend completely "for the common good"

Also, FWIW I don't want a lot of fundamental in my tone. It muddies the mix which is why I have my rig set up in just such a way. You'll get far more boomy low end taking a DI send from my bass then you will either miking my rig or going post DI...yes, I have A/B'ed them.

 

[Marcus Willett]

I dunno, I listen to Paul Denman playing for Sade, and he goes direct into the board ?

He also plays an active bass with active EQ that he uses. I guarantee if you took that exact circuit and put it in an external housing suddenly you'd have soundmen saying they need the signal before that preamp because the EQ he's using won't work in the house.

So what kind of dial tweaking is Marcus doing to get such a proprietary tone?

Maybe a little, maybe a lot...so what? Again, it has to be justified to the soundman to decide if he will deign to allow me to use it?

 

[JimmyM]

Lucky you.

My problem is that I'm very picky.
It's part of the job.

so i'm supposed to abandon my pickiness in favor of your pickiness? that'll happen.

 

[frankie5string]

He also plays an active bass with active EQ that he uses. I guarantee if you took that exact circuit and put it in an external housing suddenly you'd have soundmen saying they need the signal before that preamp because the EQ he's using won't work in the house.

Don't you play an active bass?
From your myspace page and your photo it appears you do...

I play an active bass... I dunno if you'd want to take a passive signal off a '79 Stingray... it wouldn't have any character... and your situation is moot anyway, because you never would take a 79 stingray passive... It would be silly and power-less.

Maybe a little, maybe a lot...so what? Again, it has to be justified to the soundman to decide if he will deign to allow me to use it?

But how does what you're hearing at the speaker match what the crowd hears at 50/150/500 feet? Also, if you do tweak a lot you can bet all that EQ will have some phase issues... Your speakers make up for that... Then you stick a microphone in front of the speaker and you're dealing with even more inefficiencies... like the cone being tighter in a cold room... or heat subtly altering its response throughout the gig...

Some of these guys using Midas consoles have fantastic eq as well... they can do things we with our amps can only dream of - and keep it from being boomy and muddy... isn't that what you want? You want to be heard and felt right? You're playing through a 4x10... he's got (probably) a bunch of 15s or maybe some 18" speakers for subs... He's not just going to pitch your signal through the subs... unless he really sucks.