dear sound guy, thanks. (di box content)

[JimmyM]

You guys are fairly high and mighty on all this... Often I'm below the sound guy on the totem pole... So, anything I can bring to make his life easier gets me three things: 1) No complaints to the music director which in turn gets me more call backs, and 2) I think bass players having their own DI should be reasonable to avoid the catastrophe I described earlier on. And finally 3) Kudos from the sound man, which gets back to the music director, which gets me a call back or another gig.

i worked very hard to get to the point where i had some say over the soundmen i work with, and i use it sparingly but i use it, most definitely.

I'm not saying everyone should do this, but for under $200, a good passive DI is pretty cheap insurance... right?

Yes it is...if that's your thing. if it's not your thing, it's a pretty piss poor last resort.

I dunno, I listen to Paul Denman playing for Sade, and he goes direct into the board - and he sounds exactly like the record, which happens to sound exactly like his old Trace rig...

I think Paul Denman is great. But I ain't Paul Denman and I don't have any of his tonal goals.

That aside, what's so radically different about a Thunderfunk amp and Eden cab that can not be had through mains and EQ? That's a pretty modern and Hifi rig is it not? The last one I heard certainly wasn't what I consider a "tone applier". So what kind of dial tweaking is Marcus doing to get such a proprietary tone?

see, that's the whole attitude thing i was talking about with you. you don't see the point in it, so you issue a challenge like marcus should have to explain it to you. but marcus is one of the top most sought after musicians in branson and works all the time and really doesn't have to explain himself in that manner to anyone.

 

[frankie5string]

see, that's the whole attitude thing i was talking about with you. you don't see the point in it, so you issue a challenge like marcus should have to explain it to you. but marcus is one of the top most sought after musicians in branson and works all the time and really doesn't have to explain himself in that manner to anyone.

Ok, fair enough. But you and Marcus have more or less stopped the thread with all this "we don't have to explain ourselves" bs... What exactly does that do for those of us in here who are here to learn?

I don't recall Nathan East, Herbie Flowers, or any of the other working bass players I've spoken to over the years being so belligerent. That "Maybe I tweak it a lot, maybe I tweak it a little" comment from Marcus is purely childish and unhelpful.

If you're going to present a thesis - back the damned thing up with something concrete... not broad brush strokes like "I think the bass sound is crap" when it's not all that clear what "the bass sound" is?

I asked a simple question - what makes ones amp tone so proprietary that a superb sound board can't render? I got a smart ass remark...

Maybe it's the water in Branson, maybe it's Andy Williams' silvery hair.
It doesn't mean anything when the answer is "I don't have to tell you why because I'm the most sought after pro in Branson"...

These boards are meant to be educational too... and obviously Marcus has time to shoot off posts - he was practically following my postings all evening tonight.

Why is a good DI a piss poor last resort?

What is it about you that makes so many of the other suggestions here incorrect or invalid?

What's the point in answering if all you're going to do is tell me I have no right to ask... you shouldn't be here if that's your attitude.

 

[JimmyM]

you have every right to ask. but you're not really asking...you're stating a proposition that works for you then challenging someone to explain to your satisfaction why they don't like to do what you do. you definitely stated your question in a belligerent way...at least that's the way i saw it.

see, my whole thing with what you're doing here is i'm totally behind what someone else wants to do with their tone. it's their tone, after all. if what you do works for you, rock it proudly. i would never question it. you, on the other hand, are not only questioning it but you're challenging us to explain it like it's a really dumb idea. and though you haven't come right out and said it, your whole position is you think micing a cab is a really dumb idea and you're flabbergasted that anyone would disagree. great...don't mic your cab. but i do what i want on my gigs, and the only explanation i can give you is i like the sound of a miced cab and i don't like the sound of an untreated di. that's really the only explanation i can think of, and the only explanation i need to give anyone.

 

[Marcus Willett]

Don't you play an active bass?
From your myspace page and your photo it appears you do.

No, I haven't played active basses in over 10 years; it's not my voice.

I dunno if you'd want to take a passive signal off a '79 Stingray... it wouldn't have any character..

Funny how with a Stingray it's justified by saying the character of the bass would be gone. Somehow if the tone shaping is done outside the bass it's different. The two band onboard preamp on a Stingray is essential enough to its' tone that bypassing it would take away its' character, but using the preamp (just another preamp in fact) out on my Thunderfunk is a bad idea because it will sound bad in the house? I'd love to hear you explain this to me.

But how does what you're hearing at the speaker match what the crowd hears at 50/150/500 feet?

Show me an instrument where that's true and maybe you'd have a point.

That "Maybe I tweak it a lot, maybe I tweak it a little" comment from Marcus is purely childish and unhelpful.

This should be good...so I'm childish to want my tone and you're professional to want yours?

I don't recall Nathan East, Herbie Flowers, or any of the other working bass players I've spoken to over the years being so belligerent.

You mean like Nathan designing an external preamp specifically so he can get his tone and being so "belligerent" as to say he wouldn't play live or record without it?

If you're going to present a thesis - back the damned thing up with something concrete... not broad brush strokes like "I think the bass sound is crap" when it's not all that clear what "the bass sound" is?

I must have missed the part where asking questions is presenting a thesis. I'm not saying I'm presenting objective facts, just the opposite in fact. Which is why I suggest the soundman isn't presumptively correct by virtue of his position. I'm not saying I am either, but I am saying my tone comes from my rig and no one has the right to tell me I'm not allowed it.

obviously Marcus has time to shoot off posts - he was practically following my postings all evening tonight.

Well, for one thing it's the off-season here in Branson. I start up work in 3 weeks. For another it's Sunday; the day I usually chill and don't practice. For a third I'm single and it's just me and the dog. Fourth, I have the computer on and can hear when an email comes in telling me there's a response to this thread and it's a small house. Fifth, uniformity of treating people is a subject I'm passionate about...does it make sense now?

 

[fokof]

Fifth, uniformity of treating people is a subject I'm passionate about...does it make sense now?

Same here !

 

[Marcus Willett]

Same here !

Good to know, really. As Jimmy says, I have no problem with whatever method a person chooses to find their voice. If you're completely happy with the sound you get plugging your bass straight to a DI, you'll have no bigger supporter than me...if that works for you, I'm all for it. In fact I'm a bit jealous because if I were like that my life would be much simpler.

Alas, I do not like the sound of a bass straight to a DI. Pretty much any bass, pretty much any DI and I've used a lot. There are times and situations when I can live with it and there are certain circumstances (like the oft-mentioned festival with revolving bands) where it is pretty much the only practical option. That does not however logically lead to it being the "right" or "best" way, even if it is the most common. It may be for you, it may not, but anyone in this industry should be well aware that there is no correlation between quality and ubiquity.

So many times the comeback to this debate is along the lines of "In most situations a bass straight to a DI will just sound better." Says who? It's the most common approach...OK, so what? People confuse their personal preference with empirical fact. If they like something it's "better"...and to them it is. That does not make it so as a fact.

I have yet to hear anyone put forth any kind of convincing argument why onboard preamps (oh, like the Stingray) are perfectly OK....even essential but external preamps are somehow inherently a bad idea.

Like I said before...I almost never hear a bass tone live that I don't think is crap. It happens sometimes; I know it's possible but to me most people's (including those human soundmen) idea of what bass "should" sound like is rubbish. And almost invariably they think it's great...so they're "right" and I'm "wrong" because I'm outnumbered?

I am one of the few people I know that hates guacamole and cilantro. They are both very popular and most folks thinks I'm crazy to feel that way. But that's how it is, what kind of self-absorbed a-hole would suggest that I'm "wrong" to think that or that I have to explain why I feel that way or insist that since they're both so popular I just must not "get it" somehow?

Every voice should be respected as the voice of the artist producing it and no one has the right to take it away.

 

[Jehos]

Ok, I have to say that claiming the guitar gets to do whatever it wants while the bass has to suffer is just not true.

I've put my foot down on not hiring guitarists who show up with inappropriate gear. Bring a half-stack to an audition for an acoustic folk rock band? Don't bother plugging in, we'll let you know. I've also told guitarists flat out to get out of my sonic space, i.e. turn down the bass knob. They balk, I get them to do it anyway and trust me to hold down the low end, and suddenly they're very happy when they hear the results.

I won't tell a guitarist to use X distortion over Y distortion, but if he's causing problems with a mix so obvious and major that *I* can recognize them (and I'm not a sound guy), then I'm not shy about being the guy who points those problems out. Most of the time I can make my case and get the person to buy off on the change. So far all the times I couldn't, those have been bands that ended up not being worth my time anyway.

Like I said before, everybody is free to pursue whatever tone they want, but they have to live with the consequences. Sometimes the consequence is that the band doesn't get to play with me anymore.

 

[Marcus Willett]

Like I said before, everybody is free to pursue whatever tone they want, but they have to live with the consequences. Sometimes the consequence is that the band doesn't get to play with me anymore.

As long as you have the 3 T's covered (time, touch and TONE), you should have no problem getting hired, but people do expect all 3.

 

[Marcus Willett]

Ok, I have to say that claiming the guitar gets to do whatever it wants while the bass has to suffer is just not true.

OK, I have to say this. I have done thousands of gigs. Literally. I've averaged between 500-600 a year since the early 90's/late 80's. I've played on every continent except Antarctica and I couldn't even count how many guitar players I've worked with. I have never ever seen a guitar player told he couldn't at the very least use all his FX/pedalboard/stomp boxes/whatever-electronic-tone-shaping-stuff if not all that plus whatever amp he wants, mic'ed. Sometimes not the amp, yes I'll grant you that but NEVER that he cannot use his electronic tone-shaping.

I'm calling BS on your claim unless somehow I've had a singularly unique experience in the universe.

 

[sloasdaylight]

OK, I have to say this. I have done thousands of gigs. Literally. I've averaged between 500-600 a year since the early 90's/late 80's. I've played on every continent except Antarctica and I couldn't even count how many guitar players I've worked with. I have never ever seen a guitar player told he couldn't at the very least use all his FX/pedalboard/stomp boxes/whatever-electronic-tone-shaping-stuff if not all that plus whatever amp he wants, mic'ed. Sometimes not the amp, yes I'll grant you that but NEVER that he cannot use his electronic tone-shaping.

I'm calling BS on your claim unless somehow I've had a singularly unique experience in the universe.

You play 2 gigs a day for a solid year?

That's impressive.

 

[Marcus Willett]

You play 2 gigs a day for a solid year?

That's impressive.

Yup. Some days 3, some days 1 but that's rare. Actually starting this year my workload will be lighter; around 400 shows for 2010, plus about another 50-75 misc gigs.

It's like any other job at a certain point...you just do it.

 

[walterw]

You play 2 gigs a day for a solid year?

That's impressive.

yeah, jeez, that's not "thousands of gigs", that's tens of thousands of gigs!

and marcus, you really get hit with attitude from soundmen who want to get your sound in some other way than you want to give it to them? that blows me away, and i'm just a small clubs guy.

when i'm doing sound, i pretty much always get the bass direct, but i get it via whatever the bass player wants to give me, typically the line out from the amp. i always assume that if the guy cares enough to specify what his signal source is going to be, then he has his s**t together and will give me something that will work out front.

if he requests something weird, like only a 57, i still accommodate, because the resulting "imperfect" tone could be a big part of the sonic signature of the band.

otherwise (if the guy doesn't care or has no clue), i still prefer some preamping, so i still usually take the amp's out. if his EQ settings look really bad i might switch the amp's out to pre, though.

i figure that the band has the sound that it has, either good or not, and my job is to translate it through PA speakers so everyone can hear them.

when i'm playing (guitar or bass, and in the rare case that i'm not mixing at the same time), the soundguy gets what i want to give him, and that's it. it's my responsibility to give him a sound that he can use, but it's still going to be "my" sound. i can't believe it wouldn't be like this in the bigger leagues.

jehos's point about doing what you want but preparing for and accepting the consequences is a universally good one.

 

[sonic assassin]

Ok, I have to say that claiming the guitar gets to do whatever it wants while the bass has to suffer is just not true.

having played both roles, and i can honestly say that my guitar tone was always left alone (as in.. EXACTLY what i wanted) and my bass tone was ALWAYS crap.

it got to a point where id tell them to take the bass OUT of my monitor and turn my amp up to fill the room AND be my monitor. if they want to try to help, fine, but my half stack MORE than filled 200 person rooms. there was never a sub bass problem because i cut it. the sound guys on my level at the time were incompetent.

despite having a ridiculous amount of midrange, i could never hear myself. they got my bass and scooped the crap out of it and called it a day. DI or mic.. they ruined it. the shows ive taped, you dont hear me in the system, you clearly hear me from the stage.. destroyin' ****.

 

[Jehos]

OK, I have to say this. I have done thousands of gigs. Literally. I've averaged between 500-600 a year since the early 90's/late 80's. I've played on every continent except Antarctica and I couldn't even count how many guitar players I've worked with. I have never ever seen a guitar player told he couldn't at the very least use all his FX/pedalboard/stomp boxes/whatever-electronic-tone-shaping-stuff if not all that plus whatever amp he wants, mic'ed. Sometimes not the amp, yes I'll grant you that but NEVER that he cannot use his electronic tone-shaping.

I'm calling BS on your claim unless somehow I've had a singularly unique experience in the universe.

That's not what I said though. I was talking about telling a guitarist to get out of my sonic space, not telling him what effects he can or can't use.

And of course we all know that guitarists *need* all those pedals, because their instrument sounds so wimpy by itself.

 

[JimmyM]

Ok, I have to say that claiming the guitar gets to do whatever it wants while the bass has to suffer is just not true.

i have never seen a soundman argue with a guitarist about using a mic on their amp. i have never seen a soundman try to bypass a guitarist's effects with a di. the only thing i've ever seen a guitarist and soundman argue about is stage volume. but i have gotten into shouting matches with soundmen over all of it.

i'll tell you, though...i never in a million years expected to see bass players argue with other bass players over this subject. but through tb, i have discovered that bassists are an extremely intolerant bunch. a lot of bassists really seem to hate it when you like something they don't or vice versa. it's disheartening and sad that so many of you are so intolerant of my likes and dislikes.

 

[frankie5string]

No, I haven't played active basses in over 10 years; it's not my voice.
Funny how with a Stingray it's justified by saying the character of the bass would be gone. Somehow if the tone shaping is done outside the bass it's different.

Have you ever tried using a Stingray (vintage) without its pre... it has virtually no usable output... If you want to be in that ballpark, use an active bass... but I can understand that it's not your thing and hence your pickups have more output - they're designed to work passively without having a pre in front of them before the amp.

You just said that "Active basses are not your thing"... If so, then you're at the mercy of the perception of the sound guy. There are lots of sound men out there who don't want to interface with a DI that's being powered by mains. That's the only reason why they wouldn't all take an XLR off your amp...

My only curiosity is that you insist there's only one way to get your tone out of your amp? and that's by miking the speaker...and if he doesn't mic your speaker, you're apparently insulted and feel that your rights are being taken away from you.

For the Andy Williams stuff, you have a touring/assigned sound guy right? So hasn't he worked with you to get the tone you want?

When you're dealing with large venues (especially) you may not know or have access to the power system to ensure that you're not causing potential grounding problems. An independent DI solves that problem. You know this. I bet your larger gigs have dedicated power for all of the band members who require it...right?

There are lots of guys out there using Sadowsky pre's outboard and Nathan's box is available from PJ for anyone... it's not like he's hiding any secrets there... He certainly hasn't said anything like "I don't have to tell you why I like this"

So I would think the best midpoint would be some sort of tone-solution from Thunderfunk that is separate from your amp... so you could dial up your amp to get what you want, then either match it at the DI OR change it slightly to compensate for an incompetent sound man.

That way you're not chest-beating the "Nobody has a right to alter my sound"... Instead you're quietly taking care of it in your own way. AND you're also isolated from the mains and the board. Problem potentially solved.

To each his own, I suppose... Since you've got steady gigs, perhaps you've got a little more leeway to think this way... Kinda like the working bass player who, after a long days work in the trenches, doesn't want to even touch his bass...

The rest of us have to work with what we're given or at least within the parameters of the music director/score writer/contractor... or we don't get called back.

 

[JimmyM]

yeah, jeez, that's not "thousands of gigs", that's tens of thousands of gigs!

and marcus, you really get hit with attitude from soundmen who want to get your sound in some other way than you want to give it to them? that blows me away, and i'm just a small clubs guy.

when i'm doing sound, i pretty much always get the bass direct, but i get it via whatever the bass player wants to give me, typically the line out from the amp. i always assume that if the guy cares enough to specify what his signal source is going to be, then he has his s**t together and will give me something that will work out front.

if he requests something weird, like only a 57, i still accommodate, because the resulting "imperfect" tone could be a big part of the sonic signature of the band.

otherwise (if the guy doesn't care or has no clue), i still prefer some preamping, so i still usually take the amp's out. if his EQ settings look really bad i might switch the amp's out to pre, though.

i figure that the band has the sound that it has, either good or not, and my job is to translate it through PA speakers so everyone can hear them.

when i'm playing (guitar or bass, and in the rare case that i'm not mixing at the same time), the soundguy gets what i want to give him, and that's it. it's my responsibility to give him a sound that he can use, but it's still going to be "my" sound. i can't believe it wouldn't be like this in the bigger leagues.

jehos's point about doing what you want but preparing for and accepting the consequences is a universally good one.

i like your attitude about it. i wish all soundmen were as tolerant as you.

 

[JimmyM]

You just said that "Active basses are not your thing"... If so, then you're at the mercy of the perception of the sound guy. There are lots of sound men out there who don't want to interface with a DI that's being powered by mains. That's the only reason why they wouldn't all take an XLR off your amp...

bs. the reason they don't want to take an xlr off your amp is because they're afraid you're going to touch a tone control and make them also touch a knob, which means they might have to move their arm for half a second...god forbid.

My only curiosity is that you insist there's only one way to get your tone out of your amp? and that's by miking the speaker...and if he doesn't mic your speaker, you're apparently insulted and feel that your rights are being taken away from you.

i don't know about marcus, but when i'm using an amp i want miced (i fly a lot and have to use rentals a lot of the time and some just aren't worthy of being miced, but when they are i want a mic), absolutely i'm insulted and feel like my rights are being taken away if i don't get a mic. why shouldn't i? it's what i want. why is that so difficult for you to understand?

When you're dealing with large venues (especially) you may not know or have access to the power system to ensure that you're not causing potential grounding problems. An independent DI solves that problem. You know this. I bet your larger gigs have dedicated power for all of the band members who require it...right?

if there's a problem of that sort, then the soundman should tell the bassist about it. who knows? maybe the bassist can do something about it himself. but to just walk up to a bassist's rig, unplug his amp di and plug in one of your own without saying anything is just wrong. yet soundmen often feel justified in doing it. OVER MY DEAD BODY!

There are lots of guys out there using Sadowsky pre's outboard and Nathan's box is available from PJ for anyone... it's not like he's hiding any secrets there... He certainly hasn't said anything like "I don't have to tell you why I like this"

so what? i don't have to tell you why i like this. neither does marcus. besides, what the hell difference does it make? if nathan tells you his exact gear and exact settings on everything, how does that apply to your existence? answer: it doesn't. unless of course you've decided to be a nathan east tribute bassist.

So I would think the best midpoint would be some sort of tone-solution from Thunderfunk that is separate from your amp... so you could dial up your amp to get what you want, then either match it at the DI OR change it slightly to compensate for an incompetent sound man.

yep, once again, the bassist has to jump through hoops and spend extra money to accomodate the soundman.

That way you're not chest-beating the "Nobody has a right to alter my sound"... Instead you're quietly taking care of it in your own way. AND you're also isolated from the mains and the board. Problem potentially solved.

yes, problem potentially solved after the bassist has spent a day or two's pay on a solution. why should i have to sacrifice for the soundman? nobody's paying to watch him run sound. my band is the one drawing the people there and making it possible for everyone else to work that night. why should i have to kiss his ass? to not make trouble? forget that. i get what i want or we get a new soundman.

To each his own, I suppose... Since you've got steady gigs, perhaps you've got a little more leeway to think this way... Kinda like the working bass player who, after a long days work in the trenches, doesn't want to even touch his bass...

The rest of us have to work with what we're given or at least within the parameters of the music director/score writer/contractor... or we don't get called back.

if the leader tells me he wants the sound of me DI'd with no effects, that's what he gets. if the leader tells me nothing, then i do what i think is appropriate, not what the soundman tells me to do.

anyway, what the hell do you care about what any of us do? worry about yourself and your own gigs.

 

[Jehos]

In a somewhat unrelated note, I got to play with a B-15 in person for the first time over the weekend, and now I understand why JimmyM is the way he is about his amps. There's some magic in that box that I'm not sure how you'd get through a PA, but I bet it involves mics.

 

[BigMac5]

In a somewhat unrelated note, I got to play with a B-15 in person for the first time over the weekend, and now I understand why JimmyM is the way he is about his amps. There's some magic in that box that I'm not sure how you'd get through a PA, but I bet it involves mics.

Could this whole argument about Mic vs DI really be about Tubes vs SS? Guys who like SS like going straight with a DI, Guys who like tubes want a mic.