dear sound guy, thanks. (di box content)

[JimmyM]

Could this whole argument about Mic vs DI really be about Tubes vs SS? Guys who like SS like going straight with a DI, Guys who like tubes want a mic.

i think there's some merit to that. i wouldn't say it's the case for everyone because i see victor wooten with a mic'ed cab and an ss rig all the time, but it does seem that those with tube amps like to have them mic'ed more than those with ss amps.

and jehos, while i have tried a speaker di on a b-15 and liked it way better in comparison to a plain vanilla di, you're right...the magic of getting those amps into to the pa is really done with a mic, no question about it.

 

[Sherwood]

I love my sound DI'ed. I designed my whole rig around a great DI sound, and I feel I got it. I'll tell you, it makes life a lot easier.

I sympathize with those of you who find your sound at the end of a chain. I got sick of that hassle quick.

 

[JimmyM]

I love my sound DI'ed. I designed my whole rig around a great DI sound, and I feel I got it. I'll tell you, it makes life a lot easier.

I sympathize with those of you who find your sound at the end of a chain. I got sick of that hassle quick.

what hassle? plugging in a mic only takes slightly longer than plugging in a di.

 

[BigMac5]

what hassle? plugging in a mic only takes slightly longer than plugging in a di.

I think he meant the hassle of dealing with soundman.

 

[Sherwood]

what hassle? plugging in a mic only takes slightly longer than plugging in a di.

I think he meant the hassle of dealing with soundman.

Precisely. I brought my own mic, stand, etc. to plenty of gigs, but there was no amount preparation I could perform that would guarantee mic'ing my cab without a fight.

Eventually I got tired of fighting and retooled my setup. Got a sound I love.

 

[Jehos]

Could this whole argument about Mic vs DI really be about Tubes vs SS? Guys who like SS like going straight with a DI, Guys who like tubes want a mic.

Maybe, but not completely. Fundamentally, it has to do with how much the speaker impacts the final sound. In practice, I think that a lot of guys who dig more "vintage" bass tones tend to like mics, because that's how a lot of old recordings were done, AFAIK. But certainly it's not only the vintage tone guys who want to use mics.

Heck, I'm surprised more Eden users don't use mics. My Navigator sounds *totally* different plugged direct into the PA than it does through Eden cabs, because of the natural XLT cab midrange bump.

 

[JimmyM]

i see. well that's what i'm ultimately having to do, sherwood. but unlike you, i'm not happy about it. the tools to simulate my amps have only been around for a couple years, and if not for them, i would be totally screwed in those situations. plus i resent that a soundman feels very comfortable in second guessing my needs. now since i don't always get an svt, i'd have to get a vt anyway, but i resent having to use them because the soundman is too incompetent to deal with a mic.

 

[JimmyM]

Maybe, but not completely. Fundamentally, it has to do with how much the speaker impacts the final sound. In practice, I think that a lot of guys who dig more "vintage" bass tones tend to like mics, because that's how a lot of old recordings were done, AFAIK. But certainly it's not only the vintage tone guys who want to use mics.

two reasons:

1. some people actually like the di tone better, which is fine.

b. we've been conditioned over time by soundmen to use di's to make their lives easier, which may be fine for some people but it is definitely NOT fine with me.

 

[Sherwood]

i see. well that's what i'm ultimately having to do, sherwood. but unlike you, i'm not happy about it.

I get that, and I wasn't either, for a long while.

I have 2 things in my favor here, however, that you may well not:

1) I predominately play very clean. Jazz, folk, worship, some poppy indie, etc. I don't need dirt hardly ever, and I don't play much straight ahead rock. The only effects I use are chorus, delay, and comp.

2) My current rig was built specifically to sound great from DI through the house. I use in ear monitors that take a mix from the FoH, rather than stage monitors or my own cab. Often I don't even bother bringing the cab.

#1 might not be your style, and #2 might not be an option. Or you might just want a good mic picking up the tone you already have and love. Nothing wrong with that, aside from the fact that as a bass player you're expected to put up with what you're given and stand in a shadow.

 

[JimmyM]

btw, i have a gig coming up where i got into a battle with one of the sound guys last year because i wanted to use a speaker di on an svt. he actually had the balls to come up to me and say, "OK, here's what we're going to do...we're going to unplug you from the speaker and run you straight into the front end." LIKE HELL YOU ARE!!! spent 5 minutes of my valuable day arguing with him, but guess what? at the end of the day, i won because the people were there to see my band back up bowzer, not watch him run sound.

so i have decided that next time we do that gig, i'm not giving them an option. they are micing it and only micing it. i will not allow a di unless i determine that the cab shouldn't be mic'ed, which does happen with svt's sometimes. and if they refuse, i'm going to make a huge stink about it until they give in. and if they don't give in, then i will make their lives miserable all day.

dammit...now i'm mad again.

 

[jtroska]

How is it that the above mentioned scenario does not apply to guitar as well?

In fact if not moreso since the guitarist is drastically coloring his sound and it therefore in all likelihood would be even less transferable to FOH.

Electric guitar amps are usually miced because the amp's speaker itself plays a critical part in the tone. Without the speaker in the signal chain, the sound is absolutely unlistenable. Guitar speakers act as filters that cut ice-pick treble frequencies above 5khz or so.

There are specialized direct boxes that mimic the filtering qualities of guitar speakers and I've used them live to much success. (I play guitar, too). And I feel they, too, are easier to handle FOH than mic signals. (I've done sound, too).

But guitar amps often use tube power sections that can blow out if hooked up to an improper load. And since the specialized guitar direct box would have to be placed between the power amp and the speaker(s), it poses a risk if hooked up incorrectly. I'm guessing most sound engineers would rather not take that risk and simply place an sm57 on the speaker.

Don't feel bad. Guitarists get screwed too. Guitar tone is very vulnerable to mic placement. I've seen plenty sound guys drape SM57s from the amp's handle pointing straight down. The mics cardioid pickup pattern rejects most of the amp's tone. A poorly miced guitar amp will sound way worse than your bass going direct. Trust me.

 

[JimmyM]

Electric guitar amps are usually miced because the amp's speaker itself plays a critical part in the tone. Without the speaker in the signal chain, the sound is absolutely unlistenable. Guitar speakers act as filters that cut ice-pick treble frequencies above 5khz or so.

i feel the exact same way about bass speakers.

There are specialized direct boxes that mimic the filtering qualities of guitar speakers and I've used them live to much success. (I play guitar, too). And I feel they, too, are easier to handle FOH than mic signals. (I've done sound, too).

i'm not concerned with making anyone's job easier. nobody makes my job easier. I still have to sing in tune and play the right thing for the music, plus put on a show. why should i make a soundman's job easier at my expense? soundmen should do their job and quit whining that the musicians are making it hard for them. THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE A GIG IN THE FIRST PLACE!

and if a soundman tells me that he can't do his job because i want a mic and not a di, then i will know that the soundman is incompetent.

But guitar amps often use tube power sections that can blow out if hooked up to an improper load. And since the specialized guitar direct box would have to be placed between the power amp and the speaker(s), it poses a risk if hooked up incorrectly. I'm guessing most sound engineers would rather not take that risk and simply place an sm57 on the speaker.

that risk is grossly overstated by you. i've done it 50-60 times in the last year and have not lost one amp or board.

Don't feel bad. Guitarists get screwed too. Guitar tone is very vulnerable to mic placement. I've seen plenty sound guys drape SM57s from the amp's handle pointing straight down. The mics cardioid pickup pattern rejects most of the amp's tone. A poorly miced guitar amp will sound way worse than your bass going direct. Trust me.

the guitarist's problems are his problems and his problems only and they have zero bearing on what i do.

 

[Marcus Willett]

Electric guitar amps are usually miced because the amp's speaker itself plays a critical part in the tone. Without the speaker in the signal chain, the sound is absolutely unlistenable.

This is the inherent problem in discussions like this. The amp being a "critical" part of the tone of the guitar as if it's an inarguable fact. The exclusion of the bass guitar (that's what it is) in this description leads to the conclusion that, well....it's just not critical for bass guitar, because, well...it just isn't, because it's not, that's just how it is. The OPINIONS on how things "should be" masquerade as facts. See? Guitar must have an amp to sound "listenable", bass doesn't need it. I just explained it, jeez....it's not critical for bass because it isn't.

A poorly miced guitar amp will sound way worse than your bass going direct. Trust me.

I don't have to trust you, I know. How is that in any way addressing the issue? Oh, it could be worse so be grateful you have anything at all? That's a very zen/buddhist philosophy on sound reinforcement; I guess you could apply that to everything. I mean, I could have no gig at all so I shouldn't complain. I could have no job of any kind. I could have no hands. I could be dead, in which case I wouldn't have any troubles at all.

The fact that it could always be worse is a pretty poor excuse for not doing things the right way. I know a poorly mic'ed bass cab will sound horrible. So don't mic it poorly, how about that? How about spend maybe 10% of the time a drummer gets so that it IS mic'ed well (if that's what the bass player wants) and problem solved. Every mic is gonna get some bleed, there's always problems to be dealt with; that's the soundman's gig. It's not just about making everything clean and easy. It's about doing whatever it takes the get the sound on stage working in the house; not dismissing that and saying "I'll get your sound, it will be the way it should be...don't worry your little head over it"

My only curiosity is that you insist there's only one way to get your tone out of your amp? and that's by miking the speaker...and if he doesn't mic your speaker, you're apparently insulted and feel that your rights are being taken away from you.

For the Andy Williams stuff, you have a touring/assigned sound guy right? So hasn't he worked with you to get the tone you want?

Actually I never said there was only 1 way. What I said was my sound comes from my rig. There are several components to my signal chain. Interrupting my signal at the 1/4' out presupposes that you can just get my sound with that; you won't and I have no reason to accept your take on what my sound should be. It sounds good onstage...that is the extent of my obligation. I'm willing to bend to the extent that others are too.

With Andy I did work with the soundman for quite a while. Months in fact, trying different options. Eventually I used my Thunderfunk post DI since after some tweaking and going back and forth we found something that works. I was even (gasp) using some EQ and somehow it sounded great. This of course was because the soundman was willing to put in the time to make us both happy. It took many, many hours but we finally got there. He didn't shove a DI in my face and bark orders at me like he was my dad or something.

I have no problem working with a soundman, but if you want me to respect your craft and skill and the amount of time you have put into honing them, you damn well better give me the same respect. You do that, and I have no problem working together to find a solution to the problem (assuming there even is one...in another case another soundman pissed me off so much I switched back to the post DI with my EQ settings and because he thought I was using his POS Rapco DI, he came up and told me how great my tone was), but you start off treating me like I have some sort of obligation to do things the way you like them....yeah, we're gonna have a problem.

OK, I really need to start my practice routine now.

 

[Handyman]

But guitar amps often use tube power sections that can blow out if hooked up to an improper load. And since the specialized guitar direct box would have to be placed between the power amp and the speaker(s), it poses a risk if hooked up incorrectly. I'm guessing most sound engineers would rather not take that risk and simply place an sm57 on the speaker.

Speaker DI boxes aren't going to hurt anything. The Countryman Type 10, for example, has a 10k Ohm input resistance when being used as a speaker DI. That's 10k Ohms in parallel with the speaker cabinet. If you're driving an 8 ohm speaker cab, that would make the load seen by the amp 7.9936 ohms.

In other words, don't worry about it. No one is going to notice that the load changed by 0.08%

 

[JimmyM]

Type 85, but other than that, you're absolutely right on

 

[stiles72]

This weekend, the oldies band I play with did a club where a house system and sound tech were provided. Since getting it resored, I've been using my B15 for all my oldies gigs and using a mic on it. When the soundman came to the stage while we were setting up, he demanded I use a DI before the amp. I kindly asked to mic it since "thats the whole point in bringing a vintage amp" to an oldies show. Not only did he refuse to let me mic the Portaflex, to add insult to injury, he "suggested" I use a totally differnet rig the next time we come back: "You might want to get a Hartke 410, something nice and modern. Anything would be better than that old obsolete thing." (Keep in mind, he hadnt even heard the amp yet - as this was while we were still setting up - and did he even realize we were an OLDIES BAND???) . Not wanting to cause a scene and because we had to get the show underway, I used his DI and did the show. However, I had multiple people tell me that the bass sounded like cr@p - all treble and no bass. Needless to say, since working with this guy is a stipulation of that club - we wont be booking back there.

 

[JimmyM]

This weekend, the oldies band I play with did a club where a house system and sound tech were provided. Since getting it resored, I've been using my B15 for all my oldies gigs and using a mic on it. When the soundman came to the stage while we were setting up, he demanded I use a DI before the amp. I kindly asked to mic it since "thats the whole point in bringing a vintage amp" to an oldies show. Not only did he refuse to let me mic the Portaflex, to add insult to injury, he "suggested" I use a totally differnet rig the next time we come back: "You might want to get a Hartke 410, something nice and modern. Anything would be better than that old obsolete thing." (Keep in mind, he hadnt even heard the amp yet - as this was while we were still setting up - and did he even realize we were an OLDIES BAND???) . Not wanting to cause a scene and because we had to get the show underway, I used his DI and did the show. However, I had multiple people tell me that the bass sounded like cr@p - all treble and no bass. Needless to say, since working with this guy is a stipulation of that club - we wont be booking back there.

**** that guy. you should have caused a scene. and you should have brought your own mic and insisted. the sooner we rise up and quit taking this crap from these idiots, the sooner their bs stops. if that were me, there wouldn't have been a show. either that, or i'd have used the di, but at the end of the night i'd have had a boost pedal plugged in and blown up his system on the last note (of course you have to unplug your amp first ). feel free to tell him he's an idiot for me.

btw, this post is just another reason why this thread exists. and you soundmen out there better pay heed. anyone see any reason stiles shouldn't have been allowed to mic his amp? i sure don't. and if i do anything in my life, it's encouraging bassists to not take this crap anymore and make a damn scene once in a while. stupid freakin' idiot on sound, that's what it was.

 

[Gearhead43]

I agree Jimmy. The amount of arrogance and ignorance I have dealt with from "sound guys" at clubs over the years is just astounding. These ****holes just WON'T listen to you, plain and simple. They already have their mind made up and act like they know all there is to know about everything.

I can tell as soon as the soundman opens his mouth if the night is going to go badly.

What I don't get is, if you hate music and musicians so much - then WHY would you become a sound man? Alot of the turds I have dealt with are extremely close-minded ex-carnie butt-rockers who want to make every band sound like a butt-rock band. If you don't fit their personal ideals about music, then you as a band are screwed for the evening. I have run into guys who fit this "profile" time and time again playing the small to large club circuit.

I would only hope the quality and attitude of soundmen gets better as you move up the food chain to bigger venues.

 

[Jehos]

btw, this post is just another reason why this thread exists. and you soundmen out there better pay heed. anyone see any reason stiles shouldn't have been allowed to mic his amp? i sure don't. and if i do anything in my life, it's encouraging bassists to not take this crap anymore and make a damn scene once in a while. stupid freakin' idiot on sound, that's what it was.

Only possible legit reason I could think of is if I only had a SM57 and couldn't possibly open up a channel so I could blend a DI and the mic to preserve some of the low end, AND he was not ok with just using the 57.

But yeah, if you show up with a mic and an appropriate stand and insist, well, that looks just like a DI to the board. Any lack of bass response that the board can't put back or boominess the board can't get rid of I'd just chalk up to "artistic decision".

 

[stiles72]

Normally - if this was just one of our normal local haunts with "joe schmoe guitarist who isnt in a band anymore" riding faders - I would have bitched a storm. I've actually caused more grief over stupid things like lighting and access to a seperate 220 Tap power source. But since this was a new club that was paying us well enough to "let it go" for the night - I figured it wasnt worth it. In the end there were other issues with not only the soundman, but the club in general, and we have enough other places that we don't "need" to bend over backwords for them - so we just wont book back.

I understand what I want onstage isn't always the best thing for the FOH mix, considering I add a lot of low end, and that to some soundmen, a DI helps eleviate some of that EQ difference. But to totally disregard not only the style of music we played and the vintage gear we all bring along really pizzed me off. Hell, I even had my own mic so it wasnt like the dude was going to have to go to the trouble of digging one out.

Ex-Carnie Butt Rocker? Yeah I could see that!!! I should have known we'd be in for it when the guy said "You all play any Rush? Journey? 38 Special?" as he looked over our 335, Telecaster, P-bass, Fender Twin, Vintage Gibson (Titan?) and Portaflex...