my apologies it's the radial JDI with the speaker level with speaker sim. I'm trying to get a good balance between what the house wants and what I want, hence the DI but with some speaker sim to try and replicate the reaction of a bass cabinet speaker(not a PA main) with my amp. As you read in my post I am new to gigging on bass, and my new band is playing our first show later this month. Your insights are helpful and appreciated.
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dear sound guy, thanks. (di box content)
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my apologies it's the radial JDI with the speaker level with speaker sim. I'm trying to get a good balance between what the house wants and what I want, hence the DI but with some speaker sim to try and replicate the reaction of a bass cabinet speaker(not a PA main) with my amp. As you read in my post I am new to gigging on bass, and my new band is playing our first show later this month. Your insights are helpful and appreciated.
Can't count the number of times I had the manager of the band at the board telling me to do stuff that was direct opposite of what the band told me earlier.
Or the technical director of the hall. Or the artistic director of the festival.
Even had a gig where the studio guy who made the album and the manager kinda got in a fight (arguing fight) over the level of the main vocal in the mix.
If there is conflictual concepts in the end , I listen to guy who pays me.
a Placebo here and there can also do wonders !
You are very unlucky then. I've probably met 50-70 incompetent soundmans at worst in my 25 years of playing.
I've never done much "bar scene" either where I think they must be all hiding !
50-70 is a lot. even i haven't met THAT many. but even one out of every 50 is enough to ruin your year.
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I gotta chime in again for a sec.....
I've been reading and reading all these posts, and maybe because they're all just condensed here and mostly by really, just a handful of guys.
Maybe I've been blessed the last 7 or 8 years or so, but I don't recall fighting or really having any major issues with sound guys.
I'm on stage, I know what I'm sending him, but I haven't a clue what it sounds like out front. But I've had other guys tell me it usually sounds pretty good.
My latest gig, hell, I'll show up and the FOH guys will ask me "Hey Fredericks, you have that red bass??" (my 88 Warwick Streamer 4 string and knowing him, I always bring it) I'll reply "Yeah" and he says "Good, just leave the other(s) in their case(s) and use that one".
He'll drop a JDI or Countryman at my feet and say "plug your self in there".
Now, I will ask/tell him what I want if there is a specific purpose or need and I will use a different bass. Or if the artist I'm backing up at that time has something else in mind, and it's a relationship from there on out.
He tells me if something isn't working and I adjust. Or I say something isn't working or feeling right and he'll adjust.
But at the end of it all, I really have to trust him to make it work for the whole.
Plus when I first started working with him, he actually took more than 30 seconds and walked up, listened to my rig/me play. And then walked out front and went to town to make "my sound" work in the mix.
Tim is actually one of the few guys who I'll COMPLETELY trust to go bass-DI-FOH and nothing else and know I would be totally happy if I was at the back of the house with the sound.
I know I said I've unplugged DI's and plugged into my head, but that's only been on the "oh- another band is here" type gig. Where the FOH could really careless and is punching a clock.
Here is something I'd specifically like maybe Andy and who ever else dose more sound than play bass to comment on:
I do two things:
1) at sound check when you guys/gals ask "OK give me some bass". Pretty much the only thing I do is play open strings- B-E-A and so on for a few then a scale or two. And that's pretty much that's it, unless you ask for something more.
And usually it's just open strings, letting each ring for about a second.
2) In larger rooms (1500+) I actually compress MORE than I would really like to (I use a Demeter Compulator). I was told YEARS ago, that bass has such a wide dynamic range, that sound guys don't like to bump it up much. Unlike a kick drum which pretty much stays in one place, so they don't get all squirmy bumping it up in the mix like they would with us. So, I give as even as a signal as I can so there isn't any concern.
Granted, I'm not play sensitive jazz or the like. Usually "pop" of some sort (CCM, country, rock or R&B).
Also, so they don't squash the snot out of it, it's already evened out.
Again, the tracks on my MySpace (especially the videos) are pretty much exactly what I put out for the most part. So that's what the FOH is getting.
No complaints so far!
Sorry for the long post!
I've been reading and reading all these posts, and maybe because they're all just condensed here and mostly by really, just a handful of guys.
Maybe I've been blessed the last 7 or 8 years or so, but I don't recall fighting or really having any major issues with sound guys.
I'm on stage, I know what I'm sending him, but I haven't a clue what it sounds like out front. But I've had other guys tell me it usually sounds pretty good.
My latest gig, hell, I'll show up and the FOH guys will ask me "Hey Fredericks, you have that red bass??" (my 88 Warwick Streamer 4 string and knowing him, I always bring it) I'll reply "Yeah" and he says "Good, just leave the other(s) in their case(s) and use that one".
He'll drop a JDI or Countryman at my feet and say "plug your self in there".
Now, I will ask/tell him what I want if there is a specific purpose or need and I will use a different bass. Or if the artist I'm backing up at that time has something else in mind, and it's a relationship from there on out.
He tells me if something isn't working and I adjust. Or I say something isn't working or feeling right and he'll adjust.
But at the end of it all, I really have to trust him to make it work for the whole.
Plus when I first started working with him, he actually took more than 30 seconds and walked up, listened to my rig/me play. And then walked out front and went to town to make "my sound" work in the mix.
Tim is actually one of the few guys who I'll COMPLETELY trust to go bass-DI-FOH and nothing else and know I would be totally happy if I was at the back of the house with the sound.
I know I said I've unplugged DI's and plugged into my head, but that's only been on the "oh- another band is here" type gig. Where the FOH could really careless and is punching a clock.
Here is something I'd specifically like maybe Andy and who ever else dose more sound than play bass to comment on:
I do two things:
1) at sound check when you guys/gals ask "OK give me some bass". Pretty much the only thing I do is play open strings- B-E-A and so on for a few then a scale or two. And that's pretty much that's it, unless you ask for something more.
And usually it's just open strings, letting each ring for about a second.
2) In larger rooms (1500+) I actually compress MORE than I would really like to (I use a Demeter Compulator). I was told YEARS ago, that bass has such a wide dynamic range, that sound guys don't like to bump it up much. Unlike a kick drum which pretty much stays in one place, so they don't get all squirmy bumping it up in the mix like they would with us. So, I give as even as a signal as I can so there isn't any concern.
Granted, I'm not play sensitive jazz or the like. Usually "pop" of some sort (CCM, country, rock or R&B).
Also, so they don't squash the snot out of it, it's already evened out.
Again, the tracks on my MySpace (especially the videos) are pretty much exactly what I put out for the most part. So that's what the FOH is getting.
No complaints so far!
Sorry for the long post!
It's relative to number of gigs played. And I don't get that emotional if the show is not perfect. I would probably be dead by now of extra stress if I would worry that much over a gig that didn't went perfectly OK
EDIT; I must add that being a soundman too , my definition of good soundman is maybe not the same as everybody's
The number of bad bass players as soundman is way more though!
Start with the loudest signal your gonna give 'em so they can set the gain structure.
Then do the chromatic scale starting from bottom.
When you feel a note is louder (rings) , stay on it until the guy finds/cuts it. If that ring is only on stage , they're gonna tell you and adjust your amp's EQ to cut it. The monitor guy will too.
That's it , if you have FX , make sure the levels are equal , but that is a thing you should do on your own , not on a gig.
EDIT; for compression , leave it to the techs. It's like reverb , if there is too much , they won't be able to remove any.
If it's part of your "sound" or "kit" , just don't over do it.
It's not cool to not be able to follow the band when it heats up and you're stuck to a certain thresold !
like fokov said....make sure you give the soundman something close to the level you will be playing during the gig. I just want to hear you play a bass line of some sort - one that goes from low - high end, even better. I always have the band go through a song or two after getting levels on everything individually to make sure gain structure is where it should be, monitor levels, etc.
As far as compression goes....you might try playing with the attack/release setting if you have one. I don't want the attack to be too fast when I'm compressing the bass to let the initial sound come through before it starts compressing....Generally a slow attack/fast release, 4 or 5:1 compression ratio.
As far as compression goes....you might try playing with the attack/release setting if you have one. I don't want the attack to be too fast when I'm compressing the bass to let the initial sound come through before it starts compressing....Generally a slow attack/fast release, 4 or 5:1 compression ratio.
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I like the bass player to run through a quick scale or two and then play some bass lines so that I can hear how things sound in context. I will rough in the sound then won't do anything more until I hear how the bass sits in the mix. The sound of the bass by itself is not something that I fixate on as long as it gives me an indication of what the bass sounds like off the stage. As all of you should know, it's how the bass sounds in the mix, how it fits, how it works with everything else that's the most important.
I will also listen to the dynamics in sound check, and if it stays where it belongs I will not compress but it it's jumping around and not staying put, I will take a little off of the peak dynamics... as little as I can get away with.
I will also listen to the dynamics in sound check, and if it stays where it belongs I will not compress but it it's jumping around and not staying put, I will take a little off of the peak dynamics... as little as I can get away with.
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Can't count the number of times I had the manager of the band at the board telling me to do stuff that was direct opposite of what the band told me earlier.
Or the technical director of the hall. Or the artistic director of the festival.
Even had a gig where the studio guy who made the album and the manager kinda got in a fight (arguing fight) over the level of the main vocal in the mix.
If there is conflictual concepts in the end , I listen to guy who pays me.
a Placebo here and there can also do wonders !
Agreed. Managing the personalities can be tougher than mixing the act.
I have indeed assigned a placebo to a channel input for ego's sake. A little more placebo for the lead guitarist please...
Agree with your post.
Personaly , I think the bass is a good tool , ( after program material I know really well) , to find ringing frequencies in a room I don't know.
That is , of course , IMHO , IME , etc....
I have indeed assigned a placebo to a channel input for ego's sake. A little more placebo for the lead guitarist please...
The first thing you learn at "The monitor school"
Sometimes , I would insert this thing in the lead singer channel;
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The first thing you learn at "The monitor school"
Sometimes , I would insert this thing in the lead singer channel;
Link Removed
To get through the night with major whiners and primadonnas, I have mis-labeled eq's, processors, taken direct outs into a compressor so the meters worked and everything to make some people happy when what they were hoping to do was going to sabbotage the show. The placebo effect is really strong, which is why double blind testing is used it the real world. The really sad part of it is that almost always they say "cool dude, that sounds SO much better. I told you I knew what I want". So sad.
To get through the night with major whiners and primadonnas, I have mis-labeled eq's, processors, taken direct outs into a compressor so the meters worked and everything to make some people happy when what they were hoping to do was going to sabbotage the show. The placebo effect is really strong, which is why double blind testing is used it the real world. The really sad part of it is that almost always they say "cool dude, that sounds SO much better. I told you I knew what I want". So sad.
On a gig , (with a world known guitar player) he asked me to turn down 200hz @ 3db in his monitor, I did it , he said "no you didn't". I looked again , and I was on the wrong EQ. I wasn't even trying placebo.
The only time it ever happened to me. Once.
Learned something that day!
I do the direct out thing too.....
VCA's a very usefull for this too !
thank god they can't pay you guys in placebo dollars, eh?
occasionally we get a "manager" micromanaging the sound for one of the acts on the show. what i like is when they actually go along with their most cockamamie ideas at a soundcheck, and things go to hell and starts feeding back and we get all pissed at them. fun.
occasionally we get a "manager" micromanaging the sound for one of the acts on the show. what i like is when they actually go along with their most cockamamie ideas at a soundcheck, and things go to hell and starts feeding back and we get all pissed at them. fun.
thank god they can't pay you guys in placebo dollars, eh?
Yeah , also because all the times I had to "fake" songs as a bass player.....
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Guitarist Tommy Tedesco once said that when he was asked to change his tone, he'd reach back and touch a dial on his amp, and say that he had.
90% of the time, the engineers would say "thanks, that's better".
Then other 10% or so, when they'd say "could you do a little more (of whatever they'd asked for) he would actually make a change.
90% of the time, the engineers would say "thanks, that's better".
Then other 10% or so, when they'd say "could you do a little more (of whatever they'd asked for) he would actually make a change.
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Finally saw "It might get loud"...pretty cool documentary. One quote that reminded me of this thread (isn't there some sort of requirement to wear this topic out periodically?) from the Edge:
"I drive everyone crazy, I drive myself totally crazy trying to get the sound that I can hear in my head to come out of the speakers. It's my voice...that is my voice: what's coming out of the speaker."
Just had a perhaps Jauqo-esque type question. Putting aside any DI-vs-mic type issues and technical ramifications aside...just as a matter of principle; do you think that any musician is equally free to embark upon his/her journey to find his/her "voice", wherever that may lead?
"I drive everyone crazy, I drive myself totally crazy trying to get the sound that I can hear in my head to come out of the speakers. It's my voice...that is my voice: what's coming out of the speaker."
Just had a perhaps Jauqo-esque type question. Putting aside any DI-vs-mic type issues and technical ramifications aside...just as a matter of principle; do you think that any musician is equally free to embark upon his/her journey to find his/her "voice", wherever that may lead?
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