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Double Bass Definition of overstand

#21
DRURB said:
Yes, of course. Thank you again. What I glean from your replies is that a bass designed as I described (25 mm overstand, neck pitch resulting in good projection and 6.5+ inch tall bridge) is not necessarily poorly designed. This was the crux of the matter as various posts seem to have suggested that if the overstand isn't 30+ mm, it's a dog.
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In a well designed plan, there is a consultation with the would be player who describes what she/he wants and expects from the ideal instrument. I don't think most players even pay attention to angles, overstand, bridge height...then the bass is drawn and built.

At ISB in Kalamazoo 05 in the trial room of the competition basses (and elsewhere) I observed many players trying different basses trying to gleen information as to what they felt was important. First and foremost was the omnipresent first bow stroke and the following expression.

:) means go head and try it for playability and upper register
:hmm: Means try it but I don't really like it but I will try it anyway to see something catches my attention.
:rollno: Means walk away.

A lot of playability issues seem to have been ignored after the enlightenment of a good first stroke.

So, If a luthier is confident and can design a bass with a good umph, (a lot of this pschychoacoustical phenomenon is due to the Helmholtz, first top mode and fifth top mode and how they work together to pump air) then playability issues are iceing in the cake.

Some players I observed got stuck way before thinking about these little details that make a good bass better. Some even before they play a note get stuck on pedigree, age, maker name, region...

So 25-26-26-28...30...34.5-34.6... whatever, it is important but not at all going to make or break a bass. There is only 10 mm difference between 25 and 35mm and after all that is just a scosh bigger, as in my Levi 505 jeans are just a scosh bigger in the waise and butt for the over 30 crowd.



:D
 
#22
Ken Smith said:
SS, as you get more experienced in this field, you will start to see those readings. They ARE there, you just can't see them yet. lol
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You're right, Ken, the more experience I have reading these posts, the better I am at identifying subjective BS masquerading as actual information.
Damon Rondeau said:
So you insist on representing actual extension in space with an expression derived from a system of quantification that exists only in peoples' heads?
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What I was encouraging, insisting might be too hopeful, was use of a system of quatification that exists on a tape measure to check the standard of wood work after it is finished, not in progress. It is measures like long, short, wide, thin, narrow, high, low, etc., that as comparative descriptions have little use because they are subjective (in the head only) in that context, while I would agree that they are meaningful during wood working where the unit of measure does determine the precision, this is not the same thing as keeping a dimension within a measurable QC tolerance, as I suppose you know. Were you actually trying to make a point, or just change the subject of the thread, Damon?

It seems that there are enough variations in the way DB's are built, arched, angled, etc. that it would be very difficult to characterize these dimensions in any way as too much or too little without carefully measuring several dimensions and deciding what is affected by changing things;- more or less.

Has anyone done anything like that? Do we know what combination of angle, overstand and bridge height give the optimum downward component of force on the bridge? With what size top plate graduated with what contour and thickness, and of what wood density and with which strings? Yes, it is way too nerdy a subject for generalizations that may be out of context on bass A but relevant to bass B to have much value.
 
#23
Silversorcerer said:
Were you actually trying to make a point, or just change the subject of the thread, Damon?
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Neither, really. I'm in a car ahead of you and I'm tossing stuff out da window... How else can a 45-year old father of two get his vandalistic yah-yahs out?

But seriously, there's a danger in fetishizing numbers. When you're making stuff out of wood measurement is a necessary thing for good work but not sufficient. This is why tools like calipers and methods like chalk-fitting exist -- an analog impression is vastly superior to any quantified measurement which is absolutely going to contain error, the only question is how much error. What matters is whether it fits and/or whether it works.

But really I just wanted to see what happened when I yanked on your chain.
 
#25
I have a Headache from reading some of this stuff. :help:

1) New Basses; design them until your results seem best. Measurse this!
2) Older Basses; Repair and restore them to play as good as possible and respect the masters that made them when your walking on their Grave. Measure that!

Plain and simple..

Those with experience answer questions here.

Those without experience ASK questions and ACT Respectful to those that take the time to answer you. Don't criticise their answers and ask for proof.

Just Pay us then for each answer and demand a refund for each wrong answer.

Reminds me of a story; A guy was in the Mall going up to the second floor. The Power went out. No one gave him a reason why. Six (6) hours later the Power came back on. The Mall was empty by then. The Guy was pissed off that he was stuck on the "Escalator" for such a long time without a reason ! ! :eek:
 
#27
KSB - Ken Smith said:
Those without experience ASK questions and ACT Respectful to those that take the time to answer you. Don't criticise their answers and ask for proof.
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...and who did that?

I certainly appreciate the wealth of information received in answer to my question.
 
#28
But seriously, there's a danger in fetishizing numbers. When you're making stuff out of wood measurement is a necessary thing for good work but not sufficient. This is why tools like calipers and methods like chalk-fitting exist -- an analog impression is vastly superior to any quantified measurement which is absolutely going to contain error, the only question is how much error. What matters is whether it fits and/or whether it works.
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Well, I kind of figured that was a chain jerk;- seemed a little uncharacteristic.

To me, that all sounds like the kind or things one learns building models, furniture, soapbox racers, gliders, tables, picture frames, antique view cameras, enlargers, collapsible metal lighting systems, and last and certainly not least of what is not an all inclusive list, musical instruments.

My point is that when we are looking at a dimension on a finished instrument, we aren't making stuff out of wood, we're looking at finished work, so how it was fit together during the process, whether by eye, or chalk, or ruler, at that point is irrelevant. The "overstand" is a finished measureable dimension.

Thanks for reminding me of the "rules" Ken, I'll concentrate on respectfully asking more questions like:

How long is too long?
How high is too high?
How low can you go?
 
#29
Silversorcerer said:
To me, that all sounds like the kind or things one learns building models, furniture, soapbox racers, gliders, tables, picture frames, antique view cameras, enlargers, collapsible metal lighting systems, and last and certainly not least of what is not an all inclusive list, musical instruments.

My point is that when we are looking at a dimension on a finished instrument, we aren't making stuff out of wood, we're looking at finished work, so how it was fit together during the process, whether by eye, or chalk, or ruler, at that point is irrelevant. The "overstand" is a finished measureable dimension.

Thanks for reminding me of the "rules" Ken, I'll concentrate on respectfully asking more questions like:

How long is too long?
How high is too high?
How low can you go?
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I should never get started on the topic of measurement -- it's like a mental illness I have, this odd fascination with it. It goes beyond soap box racers, though, believe me.

Anyhow, I think there's a utility to all the apparent thrashing around we've done on this thread.

The answer to "what's the right overstand?" is "it depends on the specific situation, but it's usually sorta kinda like ___ inches / millimeters / cubits, whatever." The answer has to be "fudged" like that because each bass is individual, a little system of parts that work together.

But -- via this roundabout path -- the overstand thread might lead to some interesting general questions, like the kind you were getting at earlier, SS. Stuff about the system, like "why is neck angle important?", "how do the loads placed on the soundboard affect sound?"

I for one welcome the twists and turns a thread might take; you never know where serendipity lurks. Others, however, seem to think this forum is some kind of "Answers 'R Us" hot dog stand where they are Top Dog.
 
#30
Damon, I understand your interest in the twist and turns thing... and this is not directed towards you or any specific person, but sometimes things get hijacked and off track just when Jeff, Nick or Arnold might be about to expound on a subject. And g*d D#*N it the train of though is gone and our experts get back to work on a real bass and we all miss out.

We gots to keep um interested folks.
 
#33
DRURB said:
Whoa! I'm no luthier! I was just curious about several comments I read that made it seem as if a bass with an overstand less than 30+ mm was somehow, necessarily, poorly designed or would, necessarily, be difficult to play.
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The overstand measurement isn't the holy grail of bass numbers. It really coincides with the outline of the bass, especially the upper register, and the set of the neck. There are playable basses with a 20 mm overstand, and some with a 40 mm overstand. However, too much overstand can keep the neck from sitting at a nice, comfortable angle for the left arm and shoulder.

An overstand of less than 20 mm, though, would most likely encourage left hand/arm problems... hth.
 
#39
KSB - Ken Smith said:
How do you put Pallotta and Stainer in the same sentence? Stainer was one of the greatest that ever lived. Pallotta was just one of thousands that made string instruments. In Europe, the 3 main Schools followed were Amati, Stainer and Stradivari. Pallotta never came close to any of them. Sorry....

These were just the two makers that came to mind that operated at the extremes of arching deviation, that's all. I think there's only one or two confirmed Stainer basses in existance anyway. I couldn't think of a particular maker off hand that made high arched basses, but those who copied Stainer did make the tops more arched than average. For my next trick I will compare Stradavari and Neuner.

Jon
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