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Delay vs Tape Echo & Analog vs Digital simulation

I'm interested in picking up a delay pedal & the Hermida EPH-3 Tape Echo Simulator has caught my eye as well as the Strymon Volante & Dawner Prince Boonar v2 though both are more expensive than the Hermida.

In the past Ive used a Boss DD-3 & an MXR Carbon Copy both of which are delay pedals vs a tape echo simulation device... what's the real difference between a delay pedal & a tape or magnetic echo device?

Would a digital tape echo simulatar like the Hermida EPH-3 be able to do justice to the effect it's imitating?

I know there are many threads on delay pedals but I haven't been able to find much about this particular pedal. The EPH-3 looks to be fairly straightforward & easy to use. Have any of you tried it?
 
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Tape and oil can delays have certain characteristics that keep us coming back to them and make well done digital options almost as much fun without the mechanical problems or noise. I have tried many but my current favorite is the @Sushi Box FX Echosaurus based on the Binson Echorec drum delay. I like this style as it offers more options than an EchoPlex styled delay.

Echosaurus – Sushi Box FX
Binson Echorec - Wikipedia
 
Not all tape machines are the same. In general, because they had their own integral amp they imparted their own sound in addition to the sound caused by the tape.

Tape is imperfect, and the older it gets the lower fidelity the recording (loss of high end, warble, etc).

But, what I valued the most was it's ability to get out of the way. When playing with tape I found it didn't interfere with the dry guitar signal, but the second I stopped playing the echos would pop and fill in space.

Most digital emulations focus on emulating the tone loss and warble, but they still sound like digital delays in that their repeats are linear and muddy up my dry signal.

My favourite tape emulator is the Dunlop Echoplex Delay. It's dirtier sounding than Strymon, and it's repeats do a better job of ducking the dry signal, which is more inline with a real tape delay.
 
Not all tape machines are the same. In general, because they had their own integral amp they imparted their own sound in addition to the sound caused by the tape.

Tape is imperfect, and the older it gets the lower fidelity the recording (loss of high end, warble, etc).

But, what I valued the most was it's ability to get out of the way. When playing with tape I found it didn't interfere with the dry guitar signal, but the second I stopped playing the echos would pop and fill in space.

Most digital emulations focus on emulating the tone loss and warble, but they still sound like digital delays in that their repeats are linear and muddy up my dry signal.

My favourite tape emulator is the Dunlop Echoplex Delay. It's dirtier sounding than Strymon, and it's repeats do a better job of ducking the dry signal, which is more inline with a real tape delay.

another fan of the Dunlop here. It really compares with the nice plugins. And with my memory of real tape, however foggy and nostalgic that may be.
 
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what's the real difference between a delay pedal & a tape or magnetic echo device?

Tape has hiss, wow, flutter, head bumps and audio degradation over time as the tape wears out. Electronic delays might be hissy but don't have the other flaws.

Of course, some people like the "organic" sound of tape so quite a few modern digital delays put in emulation of all the flaws :meh:
 
Volante is sweet. I also agree the Sushi Echosaurus is fantastic. It’s as good as anything 2X the price. Plus he’s a TB guy so bonus points.
I also personally LOVE the Demedash T120. Warble is the way.
If you want warble to be your jumping off point and expand into madness from there the Red Witch Binary Star is it. But it’s only got a small window of normal.

Check out the Echosaurus and also the T120. There’s no best. Have fun.

I have about a dozen tape style delays.
Asheville Music Tools is on my short list for the next delay I get.
 
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Thanks for all the input. I found a good deal on a used Volante & went that route after rewatching the Zachary Rizer demo... seems like the most versatile option out there & I don't mind putting in the time to learn how to get the most out it.
 
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I loooove delay (specially analog, memory man type delays) but only when playing guitar or synths; but I could never make it work with bass.

Is there a way of using delay on bass and not getting directly into noisy experimental shoegaze territory?
 
Most Analog Delays use a bucket-brigade type circuit.

The sound is "dumped" from one "bucket" (capacitor) to the next, and each time the sound is "dumped" there is "water" (signal) lost from the "buckets" (capacitors) which results in the degradation of the signal. Therefore each repeat is different. Most commonly we hear high-end roll off. Typically this is pleasant, which is why people still covet Analog Delay.

Digital Delays can replicate that in a number of ways, one is simply using an algorithm. Another is to simply integrate a hi-cut signal into the repeats of the digital delay, much like AnalogMan did with his Boss "Hi-Cut" mods.

The DD-3 with Hi-Cut is probably my favorite of the Digital Delays.

In the Bucket Brigade Analog Delay realm, it is hard to beat the MXR Carbon Copy or MXR 118.

Tape delays are a big different, and the artifacts associated with them are best replicated using a purely digital emulation if you don't have an actual tape delay.
 
I loooove delay (specially analog, memory man type delays) but only when playing guitar or synths; but I could never make it work with bass.

Is there a way of using delay on bass and not getting directly into noisy experimental shoegaze territory?
Justin Chancellor uses delay on Lateralus and Fear Innoculum albums. Checkout Pneuma and Disposition which also features the best use of Bass Whammy ever recorded.
 
Most Analog Delays use a bucket-brigade type circuit.

The sound is "dumped" from one "bucket" (capacitor) to the next, and each time the sound is "dumped" there is "water" (signal) lost from the "buckets" (capacitors) which results in the degradation of the signal. Therefore each repeat is different. Most commonly we hear high-end roll off. Typically this is pleasant, which is why people still covet Analog Delay.

Digital Delays can replicate that in a number of ways, one is simply using an algorithm. Another is to simply integrate a hi-cut signal into the repeats of the digital delay, much like AnalogMan did with his Boss "Hi-Cut" mods.

The DD-3 with Hi-Cut is probably my favorite of the Digital Delays.

In the Bucket Brigade Analog Delay realm, it is hard to beat the MXR Carbon Copy or MXR 118.

Tape delays are a big different, and the artifacts associated with them are best replicated using a purely digital emulation if you don't have an actual tape delay.

Excellent explanation, thank you for that.
 
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Probably not :whistle:


Oh, ok, I'm dumb. One of thees days was one of my favourite songs as a nerdy teenager and I couldn't think of it as an example of delay on bass. But then again, If any band released that track now, they would probably fall into the shoegaze category.

And I should check the Tool examples @Smooth Operator mentioned, but that's probably pretty far off my playing style anyway.
 
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The original coveted analog delay circuits like the EHX Memory Man were actually designed as more practical/cheaper tape-delay simulators, with the modulation sections of the Deluxe version attempting to emulate the natural warble of tape. They were using the limited tech at the time to emulate tape, but the specific characteristics of the BBD chips they used ended up creating its own signature delay sound that is distinct from tape in many ways ( generally punchier and darker repeats that degrade even faster and more gritty than tape).

Actual tape delay is affected by all sorts of different factors since a tape machine is a complex mechanical device and the condition of the motors, heads (playback and record) and tape itself all play a part in the way the repeats sound. Also the different types of tape delay units all used different signal paths- the Echoplex sound is as much covered for its non-linear preamp (which affected both the clean and delayed signal, tightening and brightening the sound) as it was about the tape characteristics, and of course the multi-head design is characteristic of some other tape delays which allow patterned repeats rather than an individual repeat only. In general tape would lose some bandwidth on top and bottom with repeats, which would tend to focus the repeats in the midrange where they sit nicely under the clean signal without overpowering it.

Emulating all of these factors is a level of complexity that only DSP digital modeling as used in devices like the Strymon units could fully try to emulate- that’s not saying that the Strymon stuff is necessarily better or necessary to get a good tape emulation, just that DSP offers the most potential to emulate all the complexity of the medium. Most of the “tape-echo” style of delays on the market instead are just basic analog or rudimentary digital delay circuits with some LFO modulation and filtering on the repeats. There are TONS of pedals using the lofi digital PT2399 delay chip marketed as tape-style echoes, and they can sound really good in particular for the more degraded tape tones but only really do short delays without significant degradation (an issue they have in common with BBD chips).

In other words, “tape echo” emulation can mean all sorts of things these days (for the most part it is just marketing hype) and you really just have to take each device for its own strengths and weaknesses as a delay and see what works for you! I have both a Strymon El Capistan and a Timeline that get used for various things, and frankly couldn’t care less how well they faithfully emulate actual tape (which is a mindset that can drive people nuts with no apparent benefit, same as any coveted thing that gets lifted up to unreachable heights for no practical purpose) as they just do what they do for me really well. I’ve also had a ton of other analog and digital delays in the past that were marketed as emulating tape echo and they often sounded entirely different from each-other and all had their own strengths and weaknesses as well.
 
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The original coveted analog delay circuits like the EHX Memory Man were actually designed as more practical/cheaper tape-delay simulators, with the modulation sections of the Deluxe version attempting to emulate the natural warble of tape. They were using the limited tech at the time to emulate tape, but the specific characteristics of the BBD chips they used ended up creating its own signature delay sound that is distinct from tape in many ways ( generally punchier and darker repeats that degrade even faster and more gritty than tape).

Actual tape delay is affected by all sorts of different factors since a tape machine is a complex mechanical device and the condition of the motors, heads (playback and record) and tape itself all play a part in the way the repeats sound. Also the different types of tape delay units all used different signal paths- the Echoplex sound is as much covered for its non-linear preamp (which affected both the clean and delayed signal, tightening and brightening the sound) as it was about the tape characteristics, and of course the multi-head design is characteristic of some other tape delays which allow patterned repeats rather than an individual repeat only. In general tape would lose some bandwidth on top and bottom with repeats, which would tend to focus the repeats in the midrange where they sit nicely under the clean signal without overpowering it.

Emulating all of these factors is a level of complexity that only DSP digital modeling as used in devices like the Strymon units could fully try to emulate- that’s not saying that the Strymon stuff is necessarily better or necessary to get a good tape emulation, just that DSP offers the most potential to emulate all the complexity of the medium. Most of the “tape-echo” style of delays on the market instead are just basic analog or rudimentary digital delay circuits with some LFO modulation and filtering on the repeats. There are TONS of pedals using the lofi digital PT2399 delay chip marketed as tape-style echoes, and they can sound really good in particular for the more degraded tape tones but only really do short delays without significant degradation (an issue they have in common with BBD chips).

In other words, “tape echo” emulation can mean all sorts of things these days (for the most part it is just marketing hype) and you really just have to take each device for its own strengths and weaknesses as a delay and see what works for you! I have both a Strymon El Capistan and a Timeline that get used for various things, and frankly couldn’t care less how well they faithfully emulate actual tape (which is a mindset that can drive people nuts with no apparent benefit, same as any coveted thing that gets lifted up to unreachable heights for no practical purpose) as they just do what they do for me really well. I’ve also had a ton of other analog and digital delays in the past that were marketed as emulating tape echo and they often sounded entirely different from each-other and all had their own strengths and weaknesses as well.

Very interesting, really appreciate you taking the time to share your insights on these enchanting devices.