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DI/Cabinet emulation question.

Hey guys, not new here, just haven't been on in...about ten years. So I did do some searching and I didn't quite have my questions answered and wanted your wisdom and opinions, so here we go.

I hate DI signals without cabinet emulation. Both of my amps(SVT Classic and AD200) don't have it, and most venues I play use a DI instead of a Mic. And I use the tube amps as part of a major influence on the EQ/Tone shaping to soften the edge of the attacky/midrangey overdrive tone from my pedals( A. darkglass vintage deluxe. B. Darkglass Alpha Omega) {used seperately}

So my question is, do you guys have any suggestions on a rack/pedal unit that I can run my board into that will help give me the tone shaping I normally get from my amp, and also have cabinet emulation?

Any and all suggestions are appreciated.
 
there is a few
im sure the comments and suggestions will come.

aside from that
there has been a few heated arguments here on going DI and actually putting a microphone on the speaker cab

and yes many players including myself do not use a DI ever
and will insist that the tube amp and cab gets a mic

WHY?

like you said the amp and cab are part of the tone
and direct from a pre and especially from a distortion type tone.

DI sucks

there is also a DI box that you can plug the amp into which gives you amp tone.
the final filter is the cab. and it changes tone and note transients alot.
without the cab the tone is not complete

so often just a real "direct signal" from the tube amps transformer still will not cut it.

why " emulate" a cab when there is a dam cab on the stage LOL

there is usually soundman politics and some refuse to mic a cab.
we weeded out those venues a long time ago
and even brought our own microphones when we got the...there is no mic for the bass amp excuse

as far as actually using a emulator for cabs and tube tone or distortion type tone.
it would be software based and use a laptop
 
Hey guys, not new here, just haven't been on in...about ten years. So I did do some searching and I didn't quite have my questions answered and wanted your wisdom and opinions, so here we go.

I hate DI signals without cabinet emulation. Both of my amps(SVT Classic and AD200) don't have it, and most venues I play use a DI instead of a Mic. And I use the tube amps as part of a major influence on the EQ/Tone shaping to soften the edge of the attacky/midrangey overdrive tone from my pedals( A. darkglass vintage deluxe. B. Darkglass Alpha Omega) {used seperately}

So my question is, do you guys have any suggestions on a rack/pedal unit that I can run my board into that will help give me the tone shaping I normally get from my amp, and also have cabinet emulation?

Any and all suggestions are appreciated.

I tend to dial stuff in on the channel strip. If this is not acceptable to you:
The OmniCABSIM gets a lot of respect: https://www.dsmnoisemaker.com/omnicabsim-deluxe/yh0m9

Over recent years, something called Impulse Response (IR) has started to become popular. Basically an IR is digital modeling that can emulate both the cab and mic in an acoustic space. It supposed to be a lot more authentic than a speaker SIM. Unfortunately Bass specific IR is still sort of a wild frontier. Here's an article: Link Removed

Two Notes is not mentioned in that article, and they have some Bass Specific IR gear.
Torpedo C.A.B. M, the cab sim pedal from Two notes Audio Engineering.
Here's a video
 
It truly is frustrating that so many sound engineers refuse to use a mic, yet they do it for guitars all day. It also didn't help that when I watched any of the bands, including vids from our own set, the bass was pretty much nil in the mix.

So I'm not sure if they just don't care for my sound, or that it's a substandard tone, or that's just how they mix things. Either way, I want to try my best to get a sound that I can send to their board that's excellent, yet true to what it should be coming out of the cabinet.
 
It truly is frustrating that so many sound engineers refuse to use a mic, yet they do it for guitars all day. It also didn't help that when I watched any of the bands, including vids from our own set, the bass was pretty much nil in the mix.

So I'm not sure if they just don't care for my sound, or that it's a substandard tone, or that's just how they mix things. Either way, I want to try my best to get a sound that I can send to their board that's excellent, yet true to what it should be coming out of the cabinet.

Maybe you should try mixing so you have a better understanding of why such choices are made. I can assure you building a good live mix is not as easy as most people think it is, and getting a good bass sound is often difficult if not impossible.

I am guilty myself, of mixing the bass light in the mix. The reason is because I personally think there are other more important priorities, and if I can't make the bass sound nice without it covering up the vocals and melody, it gets turned down or thinned out. On top of that, often there is so much bass coming from the stage that it overpowers the rest of the mix even if I push the bass channel fader all the way down.

This is not always because the bass amp is too loud. Often the problem is compounded because everyone wants a bunch of bass in their personal monitor. Unfortunately when the bass is spilling off stage at different phase angles, from so many different directions, it just make a hopeless muddy mess, and the only thing that I can do to clean it up is the pump the room with so much SPL that it would have everyone running for cover.

Back to my priorities. Keeping the volume at a reasonable level is very high on my list. So if the musicians produce so much stage volume that I can't create a nice mix at a reasonable volume for the audience, I will create a crappy mix at a reasonable volume....or as close to reasonable as I can make it. It will be the best mix I can do at that SPL though.

Then again, and to be totally fair, a lot of it comes down to personal taste. So if the audio tech does not know your band and understand its sound concept, your going to get stuck with whatever the audio tech thinks you should sound like. I personally think if you could have everyone in your band create their idea of an ideal mix, you would probably be surprised by how little consensus there is even within your own group.

As far as the conundrum of mic'ing bass amps versus guitar amps. The same problems are encountered anytime you mic an amp, but typically with guitar you can get a really great tone out of a mic'ed guitar amp. As I said earlier, IMHO it can be next to impossible to get a decent bass sound live, and using a mic can compound the problem. However, my personal opinion is that I would rather mic a cab than use a Post DI off the back of an amp. In fact, post DI is my absolute least preferred option :vomit:, and yet many bassist are adamant that they have to use Post DI, and swear it's the best thing since sliced bread :banghead:. For the record, I used to think this way too, before I became an audio tech.

Continuation of mic'ing discussion. Modelling is becoming more and more common, and many guitarist are running modeling rigs and IEMs with no amps. So back in the day, it was pretty hard to get a good guitar sound without using a mic, but that's changing.

Actually I don't think it was all that difficult back in the day. I assembled an ampless IEM rig back in 1995 and we used the top of the line Digitech rack mount guitar processor. I believe it was something like a GSP2101 LE with a pair of 12AX7s in it. It was a pain dialing in the patches but the guitarist got it sounding pretty decent. The only criticism I ever heard was we sounded too much like a CD. Some people prefer the sound to be nasty and obnoxiously loud :dead:.

If the player is going for a clean sound my preference is to have the DI between the bass and the amp. I.E. take the amp totally out of the signal path. This gives me the cleanest most unprocessed signal possible, and also means the bassist is free to adjust his/her amp without impacting/degrading any of the mixes I control. If you use a pedal board for effects, it should go before the DI...and if you think it's important, the end of the pedal board is where I would recommend inserting a speaker sim like the ones I suggested earlier.
 
The ir option takes some time but is recommended. If you really want to go in the deep end a helix lt or hx stomp will do cab and amp simulation or ir or both.
I've been quite happy with mine. You could set a patch using the svt option and an emulation of your cab and send that di to FOH. And then send unchanged sound to your amp. I've heard you don't want to stack cab sims.
 
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I've never quite understood why exactly, when the bass player is using a tube amp with a bit of distortion and power tube compression in the signal, FOH people insist of taking a pre DI signal which will render the amp useless, but I learned the hard way that unless you've collected enough fame that you can actually have it your way, that's the way you'll have to roll. I know of sound guys that get tech sheets for bands that require special equipment, but unless the guitarists name is Eric Clapton, these requests will be ignored.

I've long since shed the concept of ME vs. the FOH PERSONELL and introduced the concept of ME & the FOH PERSONELL vs. the venue. Talking helps a lot. When you tell the local FOH staff what you would like to sound like and what you could provide to achieve that and ask them what they think is the best route to get it done with their equipment, things often get surprisingly easy.

Making your bass sound great 8 foot in front of the bass amp and making a bass sound great everywhere in the venue through FOH speakers are two entirely different animals.

I've played shows where I could barely make out the bass, it was all tinny and terrible, only to have musician friends congratulate me on the stellar bass sound out front - so much I felt they were pulling my leg, but reviewing videos of the show showed it to be true.
I've also played shows where I was bathed in glorious bass response and could hear every little thing I did with colour and precision unparalleled only to find out later that the audience did not share what I had.

FOH is one thing: Entirely out of your hands.

What you can do is provide the signal that works best for them.
Should they have experience in micing bass cabs and are down with the concept, hooray.
But when you force someone to mic your amp by bringing your own 421 and make them redo their plans on the fly, you should not expect a motivated person behind the job. And a job done without motivation usually turns out mediocre at best. It could well have been that using a direct line would have produced a better sound in that scenario.
 
Maybe you should try mixing so you have a better understanding of why such choices are made. I can assure you building a good live mix is not as easy as most people think it is, and getting a good bass sound is often difficult if not impossible.

I am guilty myself, of mixing the bass light in the mix. The reason is because I personally think there are other more important priorities, and if I can't make the bass sound nice without it covering up the vocals and melody, it gets turned down or thinned out. On top of that, often there is so much bass coming from the stage that it overpowers the rest of the mix even if I push the bass channel fader all the way down.

This is not always because the bass amp is too loud. Often the problem is compounded because everyone wants a bunch of bass in their personal monitor. Unfortunately when the bass is spilling off stage at different phase angles, from so many different directions, it just make a hopeless muddy mess, and the only thing that I can do to clean it up is the pump the room with so much SPL that it would have everyone running for cover.

Back to my priorities. Keeping the volume at a reasonable level is very high on my list. So if the musicians produce so much stage volume that I can't create a nice mix at a reasonable volume for the audience, I will create a crappy mix at a reasonable volume....or as close to reasonable as I can make it. It will be the best mix I can do at that SPL though.

Then again, and to be totally fair, a lot of it comes down to personal taste. So if the audio tech does not know your band and understand its sound concept, your going to get stuck with whatever the audio tech thinks you should sound like. I personally think if you could have everyone in your band create their idea of an ideal mix, you would probably be surprised by how little consensus there is even within your own group.

As far as the conundrum of mic'ing bass amps versus guitar amps. The same problems are encountered anytime you mic an amp, but typically with guitar you can get a really great tone out of a mic'ed guitar amp. As I said earlier, IMHO it can be next to impossible to get a decent bass sound live, and using a mic can compound the problem. However, my personal opinion is that I would rather mic a cab than use a Post DI off the back of an amp. In fact, post DI is my absolute least preferred option :vomit:, and yet many bassist are adamant that they have to use Post DI, and swear it's the best thing since sliced bread :banghead:. For the record, I used to think this way too, before I became an audio tech.

Continuation of mic'ing discussion. Modelling is becoming more and more common, and many guitarist are running modeling rigs and IEMs with no amps. So back in the day, it was pretty hard to get a good guitar sound without using a mic, but that's changing.

Actually I don't think it was all that difficult back in the day. I assembled an ampless IEM rig back in 1995 and we used the top of the line Digitech rack mount guitar processor. I believe it was something like a GSP2101 LE with a pair of 12AX7s in it. It was a pain dialing in the patches but the guitarist got it sounding pretty decent. The only criticism I ever heard was we sounded too much like a CD. Some people prefer the sound to be nasty and obnoxiously loud :dead:.

If the player is going for a clean sound my preference is to have the DI between the bass and the amp. I.E. take the amp totally out of the signal path. This gives me the cleanest most unprocessed signal possible, and also means the bassist is free to adjust his/her amp without impacting/degrading any of the mixes I control. If you use a pedal board for effects, it should go before the DI...and if you think it's important, the end of the pedal board is where I would recommend inserting a speaker sim like the ones I suggested earlier.
Beyond a doubt THE BEST post I've seen on this/these issues. Having been a sound engineer and bassists for over 45 years, I couldn't agree more with your evaluation. And your comments on different solutions and their affect on the overall mix are spot on. Many thanks for taking the time to come up with a great post. Highly recommended reading.
 
Addressing the issue of 'cab simulation' or the lack of same: most cab sim circuits are a simple HF roll-off which is easily accomplished on even the most rudimentary channel input strips, so I wouldn't sweat the lack of it too much. Obviously, the more complicated modeling and IR-based devices are a different sort of beast, but the 'cab sim' switch on external DI boxes is almost always nothing but a single-pole LP filter.

Good post, @Wasnex
 
Do you have the same FOH engineer all the time and do they have a digital mixer or carry a PC they put on the board? If so, they may run cabinet emulation there and can dial it in to sound familiar to the audience, and put some in the monitor mix for you.

If not, you can do it yourself. Find a good pedal or pc, or ios, that you like and feed it through the DI.

The pedals, and pc, ios all can use your favorite impulse response (IR) just like a recording engineer would use in a studio. You can buy cab impulse responses from many original cabinet makers. There are whole libraries of different ones.
 
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I've never quite understood why exactly, when the bass player is using a tube amp with a bit of distortion and power tube compression in the signal, FOH people insist of taking a pre DI signal which will render the amp useless, but I learned the hard way that unless you've collected enough fame that you can actually have it your way, that's the way you'll have to roll. I know of sound guys that get tech sheets for bands that require special equipment, but unless the guitarists name is Eric Clapton, these requests will be ignored.

I've long since shed the concept of ME vs. the FOH PERSONELL and introduced the concept of ME & the FOH PERSONELL vs. the venue. Talking helps a lot. When you tell the local FOH staff what you would like to sound like and what you could provide to achieve that and ask them what they think is the best route to get it done with their equipment, things often get surprisingly easy.

Making your bass sound great 8 foot in front of the bass amp and making a bass sound great everywhere in the venue through FOH speakers are two entirely different animals.

I've played shows where I could barely make out the bass, it was all tinny and terrible, only to have musician friends congratulate me on the stellar bass sound out front - so much I felt they were pulling my leg, but reviewing videos of the show showed it to be true.
I've also played shows where I was bathed in glorious bass response and could hear every little thing I did with colour and precision unparalleled only to find out later that the audience did not share what I had.

FOH is one thing: Entirely out of your hands.

What you can do is provide the signal that works best for them.
Should they have experience in micing bass cabs and are down with the concept, hooray.
But when you force someone to mic your amp by bringing your own 421 and make them redo their plans on the fly, you should not expect a motivated person behind the job. And a job done without motivation usually turns out mediocre at best. It could well have been that using a direct line would have produced a better sound in that scenario.

Really great post and I totally agree that trying to work things out in advance is really is the best way to get what you want, especially if you want something that is a bit out of the ordinary (like mic'ing a bass cab). Audio techs have a lot of things going on, so they don't like or always cope well with last minute surprises that interrupt their normal process.

Just to put things in context. People on Talkbass often complain that the audio tech only spends about 1 minute dialing in the bass and feel that is unfair. Maybe it would be better if the audio tech spent 4 minutes with the bass? Keep in mind that if the audio tech is mixing 16 channels and spends a minimum of 4 minutes with each channel, that's an 1 hour and 4 minutes dialing in channels. If the mix is comprised of 32 channels then it would take 2 hours and 8 minutes to get through all of the channels. Most bands don't want to do a soundcheck that runs this long, so short cuts are taken.

The other thing is you don't want to waste too much time dialing in individual instruments in a solo context. You need to get them in the ballpark and then work with the entire band. Then the audio tech will bounce back and fourth quickly between all of the channels using a EQ technique called frequency slotting. For those who do not know what frequency slotting is, I suggest Googling "frequency slotting masking."

Unfortunately frequency slotting will require some degree of modification to the finely honed tone you have worked to create. Some people take their tone very personally and have the idea it is essentially sacred and the audio techs job is to only vary the volume level.

My personal believe is our signal needs to be EQ'ed for it's intended purpose and also location. So the EQ that works for on stage monitoring is most likely not going to be ideal for the FOH mix. You would also probably EQ your signal a bit different for a recording, and also for an indoor versus and outdoor gig. I tweak the EQ on my amp and mixing console for every gig.
 
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While I agree there has to be cooperation and communication between the band and the FOH sound techs, I’ve heard far too many piss poor house mixes over the last few years (both at the local scene and touring professional level) that I’m nowhere near as sanguine about the expertise and taste of FOH crews (as a collective) as some here seem to be. ;)
 
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Hey guys, not new here, just haven't been on in...about ten years. So I did do some searching and I didn't quite have my questions answered and wanted your wisdom and opinions, so here we go.

I hate DI signals without cabinet emulation. Both of my amps(SVT Classic and AD200) don't have it, and most venues I play use a DI instead of a Mic. And I use the tube amps as part of a major influence on the EQ/Tone shaping to soften the edge of the attacky/midrangey overdrive tone from my pedals( A. darkglass vintage deluxe. B. Darkglass Alpha Omega) {used seperately}

So my question is, do you guys have any suggestions on a rack/pedal unit that I can run my board into that will help give me the tone shaping I normally get from my amp, and also have cabinet emulation?

Any and all suggestions are appreciated.

I'm a bit biased, but Line 6 now makes the HX Stomp that may work well for your needs - it does amp and cabinet simulation, and is tweakable in a small form factor. (It has functions that for your purpose would be simply extra.)

I think Headrush has something similar called the GigBoard that might be larger, but provide similar functionality (amp/cab modeling).

I believe that Darkglass came out with some new stuff this year at NAMM that provides cab sim, but those might be full-on amps.

As for the "your tone" vs FOH argument that this has turned into - work with FOH to get what you want, and accept that they will have to EQ you to the room. This goes double if you're doing a line check. From what I've seen, FOH engineers generally need to get the drums lined up first, and then guitar amps and singers - mainly because of the mic situation. Drums take the most time. If you, as a bassist, can walk in with a quick situation like a good DI or amp modeler to make life easy on the sound tech, they have more time to do the things that really matter; the live mics. I haven't met a sound person yet who hasn't appreciated the quick setup, and I've been getting a lot (a lot) of compliments about how I sound out front (which, although great, actually makes me worry more sometimes, if that makes sense....that's just how I think, I guess). My next step is going to be to grab a small Behringer P2 in-ear amp and give that a whirl, both to save my ears and cut down on monitor sound. (If I can block out the things I don't need to hear and get more or what I do, it'll be better for everyone.)
 
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