DI Level Control - Necessary? New Poll

[12bass]

Just a bit of info here. My engineer is quite the purist and the line he likes to use on me quite often is always "Anything in the signal path affects the tone. The purest path is always the simplest path". His feeling is that if the Di is designed right in the first place, any FOH engineer will be able to deal with the output level of the DI. Sure, you can ask a sound guy "Is my DI level ok?. Do you need more, or less?", but if you never bring it up and just present him with a usable DI level in the first place, the issue should never really come up.

FWIW, I tend to agree with this. If the D.I. is well designed and has a reasonable output level, there is little need for adjustability. As someone who has spent a considerable amount of time doing critical listening, I also understand the desire to minimize components in the signal path for reasons of both tone and reliability.

Looking forward to the release of your amp!

 

[richtea]

My Genz Benz Amps have a switch for either Mic or LINE level.. Only one time did a FOH ask for mic level instead of LINE... It was a club gig and i have No Idea what board he was using..
... All other times I run LINE level. .Never had an issue...

Pretty much exactly this, maybe had to use it twice in 100 odd gigs.

Didnt answer the poll, couldnt find an answer that worked for me. How about "not a deal breaker but nice to have."

 

[svtb15]

Very true.. I used my Genz Streamliner 900 DI for a series of outdoor gigs last summer.. It worked flawlessly for HUGE cable runs with splitters for FOH, Monitors , Mobile Rec Truck, and god know what else. The FOH had at least a 300 foot run.. Here are a few pics i can share from stage at sound check from the one of the gigs.. I also took the IEMs from the DI out through Monitorland... The engineers Loved the DI.. I ran it with the switch set to Line Level out..
I have more photos somewhere from the other gigs. I need to round them up..
Whatever the output the amp is at LINE Level seems to be about right for 99.9% of my gigs.. from bars to large places... With the exception of that one bar gig the guy wanted Mic level..

I know this is not the normal gig for all of us.. But There are some of us that do large gigs sometimes that need some flexibility... Like i said from small coffee house gigs to the gigs shown below my DI out of my Genz was as good as the Counrtyman or Brooks Siren that they were going to run.. But our traveling FOH guy that does Bonnie Raitt etc loved this Genz Di so i stayed with it and did not use an external DI. Just figured I would share that Information with Yall.

Now here is a cable run for yall... SOUNDCHECK in afternoon FOH is seen between Tom tom and cymbal.. waaaay out there..

Pic taken half way between FOH and PA

Side Stage

ShowTime

SoundCheck - My little Streamliner on top of a rental SVT cab for that show

Perhaps asking if a level control is "necessary" might suggest that testing out and working with the most common consoles for the intended market would be really helpful.

Each market adheres to somewhat different standards... the real pro market's consoles won't have any problem with either a mic or full line level (limited to around +18dBu) but if you are looking at the lower end of the market, +18dBu is going to be a real problem.

Just as important (or maybe even more so) is how well the DI can drive a 300 - 500' worth of balanced line back to the console. This isn't as uncommon as you might think... add up the mic cable to the sub-snake and you can have 100' right there, add a 300' main trunk and a 50' monitor trunk and you are at 450' of capacitive load (plus the loading of the splitter) and that's a pretty common scenario. Larger venues can have longer cable runs depending on the path taken to the console and any internediate stops that it might have. How the DI behaves into these loads can have a REALLY significant impact on the sound of the DI (either a transformer or active driven DI). I have 30+ years in the pro audio side of the industry and it's essential to understand the practical aspects of the industry that you are interfacing with, including the associated personalities.

 

[Bassmec]

If a sound guy (we have engineers where I come from) asks for mic level from your di out, ask him to bend over and touch his toes, then firmly insert one of these as a suppository.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
He will never ask again.

 

[R Baer]

Kirk, very cool gig indeed. What a great venue! Yeah, it seems like the majority of guys are in the same boat as you. Never touch the DI level 99% of the time, but I guess it's nice to know it's there for the 1% of the time you need it. Still, there are plenty of amps out there without the control, so I guess in that 1% of the time, the FOH just opts for another solution.

Looking at the poll numbers though, it's clear that pretty much half of you find this a feature they want, so it certainly makes sense for us to include it on the amp. I really appreciate the feedback. From my own experience, I was guessing a much higher percentage of players who found it an unnecessary feature.

 

[JimWasHere]

Kirk, very cool gig indeed. What a great venue! Yeah, it seems like the majority of guys are in the same boat as you. Never touch the DI level 99% of the time, but I guess it's nice to know it's there for the 1% of the time you need it. Still, there are plenty of amps out there without the control, so I guess in that 1% of the time, the FOH just opts for another solution.

Looking at the poll numbers though, it's clear that pretty much half of you find this a feature they want, so it certainly makes sense for us to include it on the amp. I really appreciate the feedback. From my own experience, I was guessing a much higher percentage of players who found it an unnecessary feature.

Gawd I love hearing manufacturers using this philosophy!

 

[Eric Moesle]

How about a simple pad switch? I never have a need for a variable level but I sometimes knock it down at soundman's request. Simple 10db pad switch would solve all scenarios for me personally.

 

[agedhorse]

Note that Kirk's application is more the world that I grew up in, so my approach to DI's is much more pro audio than MI and focuses specifically on performance features that are expected to be defacto-standard at the level. We had 3 amps out on tour with the Eagles during the whole Farewell series of tours and the DI's functioned as designed driving really long cable runs over hundreds of shows without any issues.

I am admittedly a bit out of touch with the lowest levels of the PA world, but am certainly aware of some of the limitations that these applications require... mic level is much more common at this tier of PA for example.

 

[Bassmec]

Note that Kirk's application is more the world that I grew up in, so my approach to DI's is much more pro audio than MI and focuses specifically on performance features that are expected to be defacto-standard at the level. We had 3 amps out on tour with the Eagles during the whole Farewell series of tours and the DI's functioned as designed driving really long cable runs over hundreds of shows without any issues.

I am admittedly a bit out of touch with the lowest levels of the PA world, but am certainly aware of some of the limitations that these applications require... mic level is much more common at this tier of PA for example.

Such a sad thing to have to provide facilities in a bass amplifier just to make it compatible with a Behringer euro desk.

 

[f.c.geil]

I should have read your post more carefully before hitting the poll. I thought you meant a simple line/mic level switch, which I think is essential. After reading more closely, I wonder if you're talking about a potentiometer of some sort, which I think is completely unnecessary.

 

[JimWasHere]

Such a sad thing to have to provide facilities in a bass amplifier just to make it compatible with a Behringer euro desk.

I have a Behringer Eurodesk, and the day I am able to replace it, I'm going to take it outside and drive a stake through it's heart. Yes, I mean that literally. Railroad spike directly between channels 6 and 7. That being said, even that POS can accept hot line level signal in it's xlr inputs, you just have to run the head amp all the way down.

 

[R Baer]

I have a Behringer Eurodesk, and the day I am able to replace it, I'm going to take it outside and drive a stake through it's heart. Yes, I mean that literally. Railroad spike directly between channels 6 and 7...

While we never like to promote the use of violence as a solution to one's problems, this would be pretty funny, so be sure to shoot video and post on YouTube!

 

[agedhorse]

Such a sad thing to have to provide facilities in a bass amplifier just to make it compatible with a Behringer euro desk.

Sir, you are single-handedly responsible for the accidental spray of coffee on my desk this afternoon!

 

[JGR]

I agree with your engineer - design it right and keep it pure!

 

[BassinCT]

There's definitely a few consoles out there that don't like too hot of an input on the balanced input, usually because they're cheap and don't have an input pad
...

+1
I've only had difficulty with an overbearing line level at one local venue- no input pad and they couldn't shut off the phantom power for only a single channel.

IMO, the issue with the original LMII DI was a lack of a pre/post EQ switch. You had to pop the top of the unit to change it. When the LMIII came out, they fixed that issue by adding that switch, and also added a level control.

^ what he said

Less bells & whistles is my preference, but if anything is added to that output, a mic/line level switch would suffice.

A slightly off-topic question: will it be a problem for the Valkyrie's DI if the FOH guy has to run phantom?

 

[JimWasHere]

A slightly off-topic question: will it be a problem for the Valkyrie's DI if the FOH guy has to run phantom?

The nature of phantom is that it shouldn't hurt anything that doesn't need it, with very few exceptions, like ribbon mics. It'll toast those, most times. I can't think of anything else it'll hurt. It's one of the reasons that cheap consoles often try to get away with a master phantom switch, or ganging phantom together over 4 or 8 channels.

Can anyone else think of anything else that phantom with hurt?

EDIT: The textbook points out that if your cabling is not properly balanced the phantom can fry other stuff, like dynamic mics and electronics, because The voltage no longer cancels itself out at the end.

 

[BurningSkies]

Yes. It can hurt the DI's in bass heads depending upon the head.

 

[JimWasHere]

Yes. It can hurt the DI's in bass heads depending upon the head.

How does it hurt it?

 

[HolmeBass]

I should have read your post more carefully before hitting the poll. I thought you meant a simple line/mic level switch, which I think is essential. After reading more closely, I wonder if you're talking about a potentiometer of some sort, which I think is completely unnecessary.

This is the sweet spot- just a switch between mic and line level. The use of a potentiometer is way overkill. The switch should be much cheaper, and have less impact on the audio quality of the circuit than a pot that can get old, dirty, and scratchy (like this drummer I played with a few years ago...)

 

[agedhorse]

+1
I've only had difficulty with an overbearing line level at one local venue- no input pad and they couldn't shut off the phantom power for only a single channel.

Some small (or lower level) consoles can not handle a hot line level (+18dBu) regardless of the input trim or pad, these are the consoles that require that there be a lower level output option (mic level).

DI's really should be protected against the negative or damaging effects of phantom power. Many manufacturer's products are (all of our's are fully protected to 52 volts) but unfortunately (and I really don't know why) some still are not protected. It pays to get this info directly from the manufacturer.