DI Level Control - Necessary? New Poll

[will33]

Will, I just wanted to keep the poll very simple. Basically, do you use this feature on an amp, or not? So, IMO, you clearly fit into the the first category of those that do use their DI levels. If you factor in the number of respondents that don't realize what this control even does, then the numbers are about 50/50.

Of course, as Andy has pointed out, the importance of this control has a lot to do with how the DI is set up in the first place. In the case of the GB gear, that offers a line level signal that may be too hot for some consoles, it makes sense for them to include a mic level as well. On an amp with a mic level DI, it may not be as necessary.

If it's adjustable, I adjust it to where it works the best, and usually leave it there for the rest of it's life. If it's not adjustable, it's no big deal.

That's the best answer I can give, man.

Years ago, I played in bands that did a lot more club-provided PA support. Played Carvin heads with adjustable DI's through a lot of that time. Like a few others have said, I may have been asked to adjust it maybe 2 out of 100 times. This is playing a lot of different clubs with a different PA, and soundman at every place. Were it not adjustable, I bet they could've dealt with it anyway.

Personally, I'd put the money into insuring a good pro-level DI rather than extra bells and whistles, quality over quantity. Marketing-wise, some people expect the bells and/or whistles, especially when buying premium gear.

 

[will33]

I should add that up until not all that long ago, I used to think they were a lot more necessary......then I got hip to running a PA decently and how gear works in general.

I guess it depends on your market. I'm 39, been playing since I was 12. Of course I've been buying gear of some sort that entire time. I've been making knowledgable, informed choices about said gear for perhaps the last few/several years.

 

[rockstarbassist]

If it's adjustable, I adjust it to where it works the best, and usually leave it there for the rest of it's life. If it's not adjustable, it's no big deal.

That's the best answer I can give, man.

Years ago, I played in bands that did a lot more club-provided PA support. Played Carvin heads with adjustable DI's through a lot of that time. Like a few others have said, I may have been asked to adjust it maybe 2 out of 100 times. This is playing a lot of different clubs with a different PA, and soundman at every place. Were it not adjustable, I bet they could've dealt with it anyway.

Personally, I'd put the money into insuring a good pro-level DI rather than extra bells and whistles, quality over quantity. Marketing-wise, some people expect the bells and/or whistles, especially when buying premium gear.

Seriously?
How much is a JDI or a Countryman? Amazingly, I've managed to afford both a pro-level DI and an amp with a DI level control.
The horror.

 

[mbelue]

Lately I keep getting sideways glances from sound men when I turn my amp on. Must be the spinning lights on the BAM. Either way when they see that first thing they do is tell me to use their DI(dust covered moldy black plastic thing) or turn down my DI. So I just keep it halfway and shrug.

Probably mainstream amps that sound guys see all the time its no problem, but for boutique amps or stuff they don't recognize I think its better to have a level control just to avoid using their (potentially substandard) equipment. No body wants a hassle and its the been the best way for me to avoid one.

 

[JimWasHere]

Seriously?
How much is a JDI or a Countryman? Amazingly, I've managed to afford both a pro-level DI and an amp with a DI level control.
The horror.

When you start putting good transformers in your onboard DI at $75ish dollars apiece, that run of 50 units just went up in price big time. From a manufacturers point of view, that's a big decision. Will is bringing up a pretty legitimate topic there, with the quality over quantity. That's part of why you find so many engineers trying to convince you to use their DI, a lot of the time what's in the amp really isn't that great.

 

[kozmikyak]

I still maintain "necessary". Not _technically_ necessary, but _socially_ necessary.

You folks seem to have had LOTS better luck getting engineers to adapt to your rigs than I have. I can't even envision ASKING the engineer to change the trim/pad on my input of the board, without getting chewed out over it. Yes, it's happened, I learned quickly to not make those demands, however technically correct.

And no, I don't go out of my way to be an ass to the engineer. It just happens that no band I play for hires its own engineer for any but the largest shows, and the club's engineer rules in his own domain, and I'm always asked to adjust my output to what the club engineer considers proper level for my channel. This has been universal almost anywhere I go to perform--everything from level "almost at 0" to "almost at full output". There is literally no single output I could set it at, that would have pleased all the engineers that have mixed me.

It's not worth risking the "suck" button being pushed at the mixing board, just to make a point with the engineer. It doesn't help for me to be in the right, asking them to apply a pad, if it causes turf wars and fighting and a confrontational atmosphere on stage. I'd rather keep everyone happy, whether the engineer is unskilled or the greatest pro on the face of the earth.

I don't know what it is about the Minneapolis music scene that makes my experience in this matter so different from the rest of this board's experience. Maybe other areas have a better pool of engineers to pull from, maybe some people are willing to get more pushy to make things happen with the engineer. I don't know.

That's the real reason I'd rather see the separate DI level provided--a DI that can't be used in all possible cases doesn't get used, and nobody can control what the engineer asks for short of confrontation. It's a social issue, not a technical or a user expectation issue.

 

[JimWasHere]

I still maintain "necessary". Not _technically_ necessary, but _socially_ necessary.

You folks seem to have had LOTS better luck getting engineers to adapt to your rigs than I have. I can't even envision ASKING the engineer to change the trim/pad on my input of the board, without getting chewed out over it. Yes, it's happened, I learned quickly to not make those demands, however technically correct.

And no, I don't go out of my way to be an ass to the engineer. It just happens that no band I play for hires its own engineer for any but the largest shows, and the club's engineer rules in his own domain, and I'm always asked to adjust my output to what the club engineer considers proper level for my channel. This has been universal almost anywhere I go to perform--everything from level "almost at 0" to "almost at full output". There is literally no single output I could set it at, that would have pleased all the engineers that have mixed me.

It's not worth risking the "suck" button being pushed at the mixing board, just to make a point with the engineer. It doesn't help for me to be in the right, asking them to apply a pad, if it causes turf wars and fighting and a confrontational atmosphere on stage. I'd rather keep everyone happy, whether the engineer is unskilled or the greatest pro on the face of the earth.

I don't know what it is about the Minneapolis music scene that makes my experience in this matter so different from the rest of this board's experience. Maybe other areas have a better pool of engineers to pull from, maybe some people are willing to get more pushy to make things happen with the engineer. I don't know.

That's the real reason I'd rather see the separate DI level provided--a DI that can't be used in all possible cases doesn't get used, and nobody can control what the engineer asks for short of confrontation. It's a social issue, not a technical or a user expectation issue.

This is not how the world is supposed to work. If I started pulling that on artists where I work, I would not have a job.

 

[will33]

Seriously?
How much is a JDI or a Countryman? Amazingly, I've managed to afford both a pro-level DI and an amp with a DI level control.
The horror.

Talking about making an amp here with a GOOD DI in it, so you don't have to go buy a GOOD DI, separate from the amp.

Best advise here would likely be just listen to Agedhorse. It's no coincidence the guy comes from a Prosound background and all Genz products have GOOD DI's, no need for an extra box.

 

[R Baer]

Talking about making an amp here with a GOOD DI in it, so you don't have to go buy a GOOD DI, separate from the amp...

There's also a couple very good reasons why some sound engineers insist on using their own DI. First off, they know their gear and are familiar with its operation and sound. In short, it's easy and they know what they are dealing with. Second, if you are using a separate DI, and your amp goes down for any reason, the show still goes on. Taking the DI from the amp takes away that safety net and a lot of engineers would rather be safe than sorry.

 

[agedhorse]

I still maintain "necessary". Not _technically_ necessary, but _socially_ necessary.

You folks seem to have had LOTS better luck getting engineers to adapt to your rigs than I have. I can't even envision ASKING the engineer to change the trim/pad on my input of the board, without getting chewed out over it. Yes, it's happened, I learned quickly to not make those demands, however technically correct.

This is a good example of me working is a different world. I don't see anything like this with the gigs I work. As long as the DI is within the window of acceptable (pretty wide for pro consoles...) I like to see between -45 and +4dBu which gives me plenty of latitude to accomodate real world increases in stage volume without fear of issues.

Our DI's fall right into this window (the mic level is around -30dBu and the line level is around +4dBu nominal) because that's what just about any (real) pro audio guy is going to be looking for. We have a pro audio (at least in the touring world) friendly reputation because I've been sitting in that guy's seat and know what he wants to see from the DI without him having to say a single word. You should play and he should smile, bass channel done, move on to next channel.

 

[R Baer]

...I don't know what it is about the Minneapolis music scene that makes my experience in this matter so different from the rest of this board's experience. Maybe other areas have a better pool of engineers to pull from...

You obviously didn't spend 25 years playing the Hollywood club scene. For every good FOH engineer in town there are half a dozens others who make up for his talent level.

Seriously though, I've never run into a situation, where the FOH couldn't use my signal from the amp. The very few times I was asked "Hey, can you turn down the DI level on your amp" and I didn't have a DI level on the amp, the response was always "OK, no problem" and they've dealt with it. The fact that you are always asked to adjust your DI level, makes me wonder if there is something else going on there.

 

[will33]

There's also a couple very good reasons why some sound engineers insist on using their own DI. First off, they know the gear and are familiar with its operation and sound. In short, it's easy and they know what they are dealing with. Second, if you are using a separate DI, and your amp goes down for any reason, the show still goes on. Taking the DI from the amp takes away that safety net and a lot of engineers would rather be safe than sorry.

This is true and good points, whether it's the safety net, or just knowing what to expect. It depends on the engineer. I've had several who will take a DI off an amp, sometimes even pit a mic on you, especially if they're bass players, or just like the bass. These guys will also have a DI box laying close by I can just stick the bass into should something go wrong. If you're rigging 4-5 bands a night doing 45min.-1hour sets, yeah, using their own box just makes sense for time management. Heck, sometimes by the time everything is dialed in right nice, you hit your last song and shove everything off the stage while the next band is loading on.

 

[seanm]

You obviously didn't spend 25 years playing the Hollywood club scene. For every good FOH engineer in town there are half a dozens others who make up for his talent level.

Seriously though, I've never run into a situation, where the FOH couldn't use my signal from the amp. The very few times I was asked "Hey, can you turn down the DI level on your amp" and I didn't have a DI level on the amp, the response was always "OK, no problem" and they've dealt with it. The fact that you are always asked to adjust that control makes me wonder if there is something else going on there.

Could it be they had to adjust the gain out of their "comfort" level? If I have to set the gain really low to compensate for a hot input I get a bit nervous. I like to have a some room for things to heat up as the night goes on.

 

[JimWasHere]

This is true and good points, whether it's the safety net, or just knowing what to expect. It depends on the engineer. I've had several who will take a DI off an amp, sometimes even pit a mic on you, especially if they're bass players, or just like the bass. These guys will also have a DI box laying close by I can just stick the bass into should something go wrong. If you're rigging 4-5 bands a night doing 45min.-1hour sets, yeah, using their own box just makes sense for time management. Heck, sometimes by the time everything is dialed in right nice, you hit your last song and shove everything off the stage while the next band is loading on.

Keeping set changes under 15 minutes is fun

 

[R Baer]

Could it be they had to adjust the gain out of their "comfort" level? If I have to set the gain really low to compensate for a hot input I get a bit nervous. I like to have a some room for things to heat up as the night goes on.

Which again goes back to the reason why a lot of engineers will just automatically pull out their own DI and hook you up that way. A FOH engineer that uses his Countryman DI night after night, knows exactly what to expect from it. The reality is he's probably less concerned with giving you exactly the sound you want, than he is about getting the whole band up and running in time for the show and getting through the night with as few problems as possible.

 

[Son of Bovril]

Agreed, unless the engineer is a bass player himself, your bass tone is WAY, WAY down on his list of things to get right before your band starts, because lets face it, bass is usually the second line check after drums and there are a lot of other things to get sounding good that are more important - like the main vocals and the overall levels - before he starts worrying about how great the bass tone is... that's usually the last thing he worries about.

 

[rekesbass]

IME, SOME d.i.'s are level dependent on the master volume on the amp. Get a band with loud stage volume and you end up with a hot d.i. signal(out comes that dreadful sub-par box:scowl... If I see the dreaded sub-par box come out,I will let them know that my amp(Mesa BB750) has an adjustable level d.i. and a pre\post(and ground lift) switch... I always ask the FOH sound guy what they want and they are usually happy about using the d.i. on my amp(if and when they ask if I have a d.i. on my amp). I have had to adjust the level a few times for different equipment but, it's usually at the 12:00 position which seems to be good for MOST boards..with that said,I would think that if a d.i. is not effected by any controls on the front of the amp,a level control is not necessary.

 

[JdoubleH]

I'm okay with an amp having a level on the DI but don't really need it (aside from a mic/line switch which I've found handy on my Genz a few times). However the last thing I want is a knob for it on the front of the amp that I might accidentally grab and twist mid set.

Perhaps the one scenario where I can see needing level control would be for driving another power amp from the DI. But the only issue there should be if your DI isn't hot enough to fully drive the second amp.

 

[agedhorse]

Perhaps the one scenario where I can see needing level control would be for driving another power amp from the DI. But the only issue there should be if your DI isn't hot enough to fully drive the second amp.

All of our DI's, in post eq mode (and of course line level) do exactly this, the amp's input sensitivity control acts as that device's master volume control. (the DI out in post mode is pre master volume)

Others may do this in a similar fashon, always check the respective amp's owner's manual.

 

[LizzyD]

I've been gigging in the PNW clubs a good ten years now and can't even remember the last time a soundguy wanted me to use his DI box, except one case where backline was provided and already set up but I preferred to use my Sansamp BDDI for the FOH - had to fight for it but they relented and let me switch it out. But generally, at clubs around here there's always a cable hanging out on stage just waiting to be plugged into the bassist's built-in DI, that it is assumed everyone has nowadays. I don't play too many gigs where the band has to bring a PA and run it themselves, and if I do it is such a small affair that we don't run bass through the PA anyway.

The only time I've been asked to change the level I was sending was once or twice when using the Sansamp BDDI as my DI, because it does in fact have a level knob and it gets changed if I use it in different situations like in the studio. I have no idea where to set it to make it be line level or mic level, so it's usually somewhere in the middle. Other built-in DI's I've used (Demeter VTBP201s, TC Electronic RH450) have no dedicated level control, and doing a line check is a matter of playing about three notes, then they say "thanks, sounds great, next".

Count me among those who believe the most useful level adjustment for a DI, if any, would be a toggle between mic/line, since those are the standard expected types of signals. And independent of the master volume. And if the amp includes a mute switch it should mute the DI as well, unlike the Demeter. I don't need my tuning to come full blast through the PA.